Digital cameras wear out?

[jrethorst]

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In another thread a post says that while Leica film cameras can outlast the owner, digital cameras have only so many shots in them. Is this generally true? What part(s) wear out?

 

If this is true, do you know how many shots a Digilux 2 has? I'm very happy with mine and wonder if I should get a second one for when this one wears out.

[Dan States]

We all only have "so many" shots in us....Mostly dependent on care and construction quality. I've worn out a Sony and a Fuji P&S by using them for claymation video...About 5000 shots from the Sony before the buttons failed. About 15000 from the Fuji before it just croaked.

 

An M8 or even better a Nikon D3 should get 150-300K shots before it needs a refresh.

 

Dan

[farnz]

I'm in the same boat and I've also considered obtaining a second Digilux 2 to carry on when my current one takes the journey to that great darkroom in the sky. I haven't though because of the battery dilemma.

 

It's likely that the battery will be the major problem because Lithium Ion batteries have a finite life that depends particularly on age. The conditions that the battery is kept in and the stress that the battery is subjected to will also have an effect but ultimately it is the ticking clock that will ultimately cause it to fail. There are those that quote a 2 to 3 year life cycle for Li-On batteries but that seems very conservative to me and I expect the batteries I have for my D2 to last between 7 to 10 years because cameras normally aren't too hard on their batteries.

 

Unfortunately the Digilux 2 and the Lumix LC1 are out of production, which means that batteries for them are also out of production so there will be a time in the future when the last battery produced for either will fail and there will be no way to power your camera.

 

Unless somebody starts to produce new batteries for D2s and LC1s, which doesn't seem to be very likely, they are destined to become very attractive doorstops, paperweights or curios.

 

Perhaps the only other hope is for someone to deveop a means of supplying power through the same battery shell because the 'unique' part of the D2's battery is the set of contacts and the way that they interfaces with the camera to supply power. I expect that suitable battery technologies will be available in suitable voltages for the forseeable future, or until the ions run out <joke!>, but without the appropriate contacts they regrettably won't be compatible with your D2.

 

Pete.

[stuny]

Pete -

 

Doesn't the D3 take the same battery as the D2?

[dhsimmonds]

I was speaking to a main Leica dealer only last week as I needed a replacement battery for my DMR, one of them having gone dead on me. He has apparently bought the entire stock of DMR batteries held by Leica Cameras UK.

 

He advised me that when his stock has gone then there will be no more. Any digital camera is as dead as the dodo without it's battery. He suggested though that some enterprising battery supplier would then fill the void with their own battery designed to fit the DMR..............at a price! He advised keeping the old dead battery to aid this process in the future as the DMR battery casing is a bit special.

 

He also advised that the DMR handbook is incorrect in suggesting that the DMR battery can be changed from any state of charge. In his experience DMR battery life is very much reduced by frequent re-charging from a near fully charged state.

[richam]

Unless a device is subject to mechanical wear and tear or has components that deteriorate over time, random failure modes are referred to as exponential. That is, for example, if you keep a digital device for 10 years, the probability of failure during year 3 is the same as failure during year 7. The device neither improves nor deteriorates over it's life cycle. This is certainly the case with almost all components in digital cameras with the notable exception of the batteries, which change chemically over time no matter how carefully you care for them. It makes a case for cameras that use common batteries, such as AA, AAA, 9volt, etc, which have the potential of keeping your camera running until other mechanical or random failures take over.

 

Something else to think about is life cycle. I spent some 30 years in the communications satellite industry. Satellites cost in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and a constellation of them can run in the tens of billions with launch costs. Normally, satellites carry only enough hydrazine fuel to keep them on station for 10 years. It would be easy to design for a 15 or 20 year cycle or more with a modest increase in cost. But the technology is moving so fast that any satellite would be obsolete and useless after 10 years.

 

The point is that any digital camera will be obsolete and a "throw-away" eventually, most likely within a few short years. If you invest in a prudent stock of spare camera-dependent batteries, you will most likely get the full use of your investment, and be ready to move up to the latest technology when the time comes to throw away your current camera.

 

If you are expecting to invest in the digital equivalent of the M2, with a 50+ year life cycle, forget it. Be prepared to discard after a few years.

[farnz]

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Pete -

 

Doesn't the D3 take the same battery as the D2?

Stuart,

 

I don't have a D3 but if it does: yahoooo! Can anyone confirm please?

 

Pete.

[farnz]

... If you invest in a prudent stock of spare camera-dependent batteries, you will most likely get the full use of your investment, and be ready to move up to the latest technology when the time comes to throw away your current camera...

Regrettably the service life of Lithium Ion batteries is tied to the date of their manufacture whether they're used or not. So even if I was to purchase a bulkload of out-of-production, unused batteries manufactured around the final end-of-run date so that as one wore out I would have a fresh one to replace it, unfortunately they will all reach end-of-life around the same date, give or take, whether they were used or not. The likelihood is that the D2 will outlast its batteries.

 

Pete.

[MJLogan]

Pete -

 

Doesn't the D3 take the same battery as the D2?

 

The D3 battery is slightly different in terms of its power output but they are, on a practical level, interchangeable. One gets somewhat fewer images per charge using a D2 battery in a D3. I haven't noticed an advantage when using the D3 battery in the D2.

[farnz]

The D3 battery is slightly different in terms of its power output but they are, on a practical level, interchangeable. One gets somewhat fewer images per charge using a D2 battery in a D3. I haven't noticed an advantage when using the D3 battery in the D2.

Thanks for the confirmation and good news because batteries are still being manufactured for the D3.

 

Now we can turn our attention back to which parts of the D2 will eventually cause it to become a doorstop, and my guess would be the shutter mechanism because of stress induced into moving mechanical parts at high speed over a long period of time. How long that will takes is anybody's guess.

 

Pete.

[richam]

Regrettably the service life of Lithium Ion batteries is tied to the date of their manufacture whether they're used or not. So even if I was to purchase a bulkload of out-of-production, unused batteries manufactured around the final end-of-run date so that as one wore out I would have a fresh one to replace it, unfortunately they will all reach end-of-life around the same date, give or take, whether they were used or not. The likelihood is that the D2 will outlast its batteries.

 

Pete, good point. In this case, "prudent" means getting a few of "end-of-run" batteries just before they are discontinued. You may need a crystal ball to figure this out, but by the time these give out, the camera will likely be obsolete anyway, whether it is otherwise functional or not. I still like the idea of using common batteries, even if it means extra bulk and weight. This way, the consumer can judge whether or not he wants to keep his Maxwell or Edsel running.

[elansprint72]

I'm guessing that all digi-cams have a small on-board battery to keep the clock running, etc. This too must have a finite life and will probably be a bugger to replace.

[farnz]

Michael,

 

I hear what you're saying about the D2 becoming obsolete but for me its particularly the swee-eet Vario-Summicron lens (and the close-up performance of the Elpro-D) that I will miss most of all. So there may be similar cameras - correction, there ARE similar cameras - with larger pixel counts, optical viewfinders and a host of other features but none of them can, for me, top the joy of using the D2's tactile manual controls, its quietness or the images it produces.

 

Sure, it has its annoying idiosyncracies but all in all I can't think of a camera that would replace my D2, when it becomes obsolete. Perhaps its a similar arguement for those who continue to shoot with Leica screw mount cameras perhaps.

 

Pete.

[jrethorst]

e also advised that the DMR handbook is incorrect in suggesting that the DMR battery can be changed from any state of charge. In his experience DMR battery life is very much reduced by frequent re-charging from a near fully charged state.

 

Is the DMR battery a lithium-ion?

[stuny]

Pete -

 

I couldn't agree more with you regarding the D2. But back to batteries. Batteries work by chemical reaction. Most chemical reactions are slowed by reduced temperature. Consequently, many of us store our film and regular batteries in the refridgerator. Perhaps this would work for lithium ion batteries. Anybody more technical than I am out there care to comment?

[richam]

Pete, Agree about the D2. It's a unique camera. I've taken some great photos with it, and will continue to do so until forced to discard it. Cooling or even freezing the batteries is a neat idea, so I hope it might work, or some alternate solution can be found. It does take the same batteries as the D1, so maybe there's enough after-market demand for manufacturers to provide extended support.

 

Another idea might be the DC in jack. Perhaps one could devise a battery pack using standard batteries. It could plug into the jack and mount on the camera somehow, perhaps by the tripod socket. Not sure it could be done, and it would make the D2 bigger and bulkier.

[farnz]

To prolong Lithium Ion battery life the BatteryUniversity advises maintaining 40% charge and putting them into the refrigerator but not the freezer (refer to "Simple Guidelines" at How to prolong lithium-based batteries).

 

Regrettably the behaviour of Lithium Ion batteries doesn't appear to be clearly understood because different bona fide sources give different advice; some say regularly deeply discharge them to prolong their life and others will tell you that doing this only stresses them unnecessarily - so take your pick. The one thing that the information sources are fairly unified about is what I mentioned earlier about service life being clearly linked to age.

 

I can speak from my experience with VRLA (valve-regulated lead-acid) batteries that are used for ac main back-up for large-scale telecoms systems and state unequivocally that prolonged exposure to temperatures in excess of 25C will definitely shorten the life of any type of rechargable dry battery, ie L-Ion, NiCad, VRLA, NiMH etc, (but wet cells are not affected).

 

Lower temperatures, 5C to 15C will temporarily reduce a battery's capacity and prolonged exposure to lower tempertures will marginally increase battery life because, as Stuart correctly points out, this slows chemical recombinations around 20C.

 

What varies between battery types is whether it is beneficial for the battery to see a small 'float' voltage that will maintain a minimum charge. Some batteries require this to stop them reverse-biassing, which means that the positive pole (anode) develops a slightly negative charge compared to the negative pole (cathode). Many of us have probably experienced this when allowing NiCad batteries to go completely flat and then finding that you can't charge them up again. (Do not pass GO, go directly to the store for new batteries. ) None of the information I've found on L-Ion rechargable batteries mentions a float voltage so this implies that they don't need it.

 

I'm not sure how you're supposed to maintain a 40% charge over long periods though since the D2's charger only has a single LED to tell you that the battery is fully charged.

 

I hope this helps ... if you managed to wade through to here without dropping off!

 

Pete.

[dhsimmonds]

Is the DMR battery a lithium-ion?

 

Yes, the DMR battery is Li-ion and in a hard casing elaborately designed to fot the DMR with a very small charging socket containing 3 very fine pins( terminals). The three terminals connecting the battery to the digital back are very substantial though and quite large by digital camera standards.

[jaapv]

Perhaps the only other hope is for someone to deveop a means of supplying power through the same battery shell because the 'unique' part of the D2's battery is the set of contacts and the way that they interfaces with the camera to supply power

 

Pete.

 

 

Like these people do, and they are not the only ones. they open the shell and replace the cells.

 

 

http://www.akku-center-reich.de - Aufarbeitung von Akkus

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[mud]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post, I am looking at purchasing the m8 soon, for me this will be a substantial outlay and as I dont shoot professionally am rather concerned about the expected lifespan of my soon to be new m8. I have been reading about the update program for the m8 which has indeed made me feel like this is a good purchase, expecting to get many good years shooting with this camera, but after reading this post am not sure if I should be buying this camera I was under the impression that it would last me a lifetime?

Considering that I will be spending a lot on lenses am now concerned as I might need to replace the body every few years?

 

Any help or advise and direction would be much appreciated.

 

Mud