Yes or No, Black or White is Leica going to make the R10?

[dhsimmonds]

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most Leica users want to keep their current lenses more than they need AF, IS, VR and other gadgets.

 

Too right they do!

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[AlanG]

Question is to know if those 'some' are that many actually. If they are like me, most Leica users want to keep their current lenses more than they need AF, IS, VR and other gadgets.

 

The point is that if Leica makes a camera that is appealing only to some (or many) of the photographers who currently own R lenses, then will that be enough of a market to justify the development, manufacturing, marketing, and support efforts required?

 

I think it is rather patronizing and narrow minded to call IS, AF, tilt/shift lenses, etc. "gadgets" when they are major contributors to many photographers getting better quality images. (Or any usable image in some circumstances.) Maybe it gives some photographers a special satisfaction or sense of accomplishment to think they can work without these "gadgets." But for me and many other pros, they are indispensible items or features.

 

Surely instant return mirrors, through the lens metering, automatic diaphragms, and film advance levers were once considered "gadgets" by some.

 

So for me, the greater question is why should a company such as Leica bother to develop a digital SLR system that does not have all of the features that are in typical $600 cameras let alone in pro DSLR cameras.

[Jamie Roberts]

Well, I wouldn't personally put tilt-shift lens design--or any optical lens design innovation--on the same footing as AF.

 

One problem, to me anyway, is that AF has problems. It's nice that many people find it works for them, but in certain adverse situations I find it works against me instead. So far, anyway, no manufacturer has come up with an AF system that works in very dark conditions without an annoying focus assist thing which more often than not doesn't work well either.

 

The tradeoffs in the viewfinder for AF are also well known--and well-discussed here, and usually preclude just switching an AF system to manual and keeping on keeping on, so to speak.

 

So the question to me is, can Leica build a better AF / MF marriage? Can they maintain superb image quality in adverse lighting situations without having to do a lot of post-processing (I don't want to have to use DxO, thanks)? Can they create a simpler user experience (that's what all the talk about gadgets really means--the user interface on a lot of dSLRs today is quite ridiculously complex).

 

If they can do this competitively, then there will be a good market for an R follow-on. And that's not to say I wouldn't like some kind of tilt-shift offering, or even some kind of IS on a new R--who knows? As long as it works, and doesn't prevent me from turning it off, it's good. But so far, I can't say the same for AF systems, so we'll see what Leica has up its sleeves

 

The bonus might be a larger sensor with larger photosites; and of course, the Leica glass designs. Most great dSLR systems I know today are truly glass limited, not sensor limited, though the glass has gotten better over time too.

[lct]

...I think it is rather patronizing and narrow minded to call IS, AF, tilt/shift lenses, etc. "gadgets" when they are major contributors to many photographers getting better quality images....

Sorry for the word 'gadget' i did not want to hurt anybody of course.

[R10dreamer]

Leica has to make a camera that accentuates the quality of it's lenses. Lens quality is the ONLY advantage Leica has in the market and without pushing this fact through marketing and sensor size and count the "Leica" advantage is diminished if not totally eliminated.

[AlanG]

...One problem, to me anyway, is that AF has problems. It's nice that many people find it works for them...

 

I should say that I almost always use AF as an automatic/manual focusing system - e.g. I have it linked to the thumb button and not to the shutter release. So I prefocus and then shoot. I do not rely on it to always focus as I shoot. Overall, I get much better results than I ever got with any manual focusing camera systems I've owned (Leicaflex SL, Nikon - including the early Nikon AF stuff , Hassleblad and Rollei.)

 

As for the complexity of modern cameras, this is true, but it allows one to customize them. Once set, many of those buttons and features may rarely need to be used. I shoot with manual exposure AWB on RAW, single frame advance, single shot focus, most of the time so I generally don't have to think about AE lock, focus points, color adjustments or a lot of other choices. The choice is yours - complicated or simple with most modern cameras.

 

I don't see any way to simplify the cameras and still give the ultimate level of user control. Anyway, digital photography has made so many aspects of photography so easy, it shouldn't be a big deal to learn how to use any camera.

[wildlightphoto]

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Alan, I agree with Jamie. The viewfinder compromises necessary to incorporate AF into a camera work against me. The shallow DOF of my typical photograph and the unpredictable activities of my subjects precludes using an AF 'point' or region, I need to be able to use the entire viewscreen to focus (and focus 'as composed' instead of using a focus-lock-recompose technique).

 

The SL has the best viewfinder I've used for this by far, the R8 viewfinder is not as easy or quick to use and I only use it because of the low incremental cost of each exposure and the superb image quality with the DMR. AF cameras are more difficult to focus manually than the R8 in my experience and represent a loss of a critical function to me.

[pascal_meheut]

If they are like me, most Leica users want to keep their current lenses more than they need AF, IS, VR and other gadgets.

 

Well, they are surely like you because the other ones have switched to others brands some time ago already.

And unfortunately, the very small bunch of the ones like you is not wide enough for Leica to make a profit out of the R line...

[Riley]

If they are like me, most Leica users want to keep their current lenses more than they need AF, IS, VR and other gadgets.

 

so you want to keep your current lenses, fine

what are they going to sell to people who dont appear to want anything new

and why should Leica as a business entity be convinced by such an argument and become vacuum cleaner manufacturers as a result

[marknorton]

The more I think about this, the more confused I become. Getting old, probably.

 

A recent short interview in a UK Nikon publication hints at the monumental complexity of the D3 - integrating apparently disparate sub-systems, skin tone recognition, on-board image databases of thousands of images, and so on - and it seems clear it was very tough to get it working.

 

This systems integration approach is not Leica's core competency and if they can get away without this complexity, they should. What they don't build into the camera doesn't have to be made to work. The cost of developing an AF system in particular, would seem to be enormous, not least in producing a line of new lenses to support it.

 

Their success will hinge on undertanding their market, a back to basics approach (to quote long gone UK politicians) where simply stated things like an outstanding viewfinder and the best lens quality will differentiate their product from the competition.

 

Problem is, the R9 has been dead for, what, over a year, the Digilux 3 soldiers on as the only product which Leica sells which will (sort of) support their R lenses, the R lens IP has remained largely unexploited and undeveloped for years (Question: when was the last new R lens introduced?) and all the while, the competition are catching up on IQ.

 

It's a tough one.

[mhoutman]

sure i hope for current R 8/9 drm users (and other prospects) that a R 10 will be released, but has leica the funds to do so ?

 

apart from a funding the development of a new R, leica have to make major investments on developing lenses, digital compacts (continued cooperation with panasonic) and lets not forget the M

[stevelap]

I still believe that Leica will introduce an R10, although I agree with those that can't see how it could possibly be a direct D3/1DsMkII competitor with a full suite of similar features.

Rather, it needs to be sufficiently differentiated from the established high-end norm, whilst still maintaining the brand reputation for superb optical quality.

 

Can Leica pull it off? I don't know, but I certainly hope so.

[lct]

so you want to keep your current lenses, fine

what are they going to sell to people who dont appear to want anything new and why should Leica as a business entity be convinced by such an argument and become vacuum cleaner manufacturers as a result

Not sure to comprehend what you mean exactly, Riley.

People like me want a good digital back for their R lenses the same way as they want(ed) a good one for their M's.

The Leicaflex SL had the best viewfinder ever, give it to us.

The R4 and others had a quiet shutter noise, give it to us.

We need FF to use our wides like wides, give it to us.

AF/IS/VR we don't mind if we can use our R lenses.

We want to use our R lenses and we want a Leica, not a machine gun.

Sorry if i'm not politically correct but this is as simple like that IMHO.

There are thousands R lenses in use or taking dust on some shelves in the world.

Their owners did not sell them yet because they want to use them digitally.

If Leica discourage them, there won't stay anybody to pay $15K or so for the R10 and a couple AF lenses.

If Leica don't discourage us, we could well pay $7K for the R10 and perhaps $3K for a nice not-too-big AF 35-70/2.8.

And if we are happy with that combo, we could well try a new AF 70-200/2.8 why not?

We are like that my friend, we are Leica users.

[rosuna]

Leica lenses are superb, but the competition is making stunning AF lenses too. The last zooms by Nikon or the Zeiss lenses for Sony cameras... Leica can be better thanks to the all-metal manual focus hand made principle, in addition to high prices. They offer something different. That was the safe and comfortable R territory. Though Zeiss is offering this kind of lenses for many mounts too: Nikon F, K Pentax, etc...

 

Anyway, many think this small niche has vanished, but a full frame R camera with focus confirmation in 2004 would have provided Leica resources and clients beyond the existing ones (like it has occurred with the M8) and now they would have been developing a second version. Now is too late, and I find difficult to gain new clients with such a concept in 2008/2009. All brands will be offering full frame AF cameras (two or more models, for less than 3000 euros, 24MP or more...) in a few months. This forces Leica to think on something different, and therefore expensive for them to develop, and risky.

[Riley]

i think a lot of people misinterpret the gee whiz gadgetry on cameras these days

while reducing complexity can be worthwhile, there are basics a camera just has to have

 

i think the problem Leica has, as its seen here, is a track record of solid capability in modern camera systems. Back in the day, cameras without even decent AF went down in the competition stakes in the 80's, and since the digital age cameras have got ever more complex, and are way different devices from the film heritage.

 

Professionally, even the quite good Olympus OM series got bypassed because of a lack of AF alone. And yet, Olympus are in a far better position to master these issues than Leica. Minolta had outstanding features in their day, they even had good AF and innovative features, yet we are all painfully aware of what their fate was. Now, if i might say so, all that rather good Minolta glass that might otherwise be collecting dust is to be the reserve for SONY, good luck with that.

 

A sales disaster at this stage of the game isnt going to be Christmas for Leica users and no right minded company is going to adopt a strategy based on the ideals of a dozen users who think its still 1965 and refuse to move on because 'thats how it is'. As a company they need to turn a profit.

 

This time around, the R will need AF at the very least, and it will have to be controllable if not automatically then by a matrix of controls that are beyond the film era like iso control and low noise, like WB, like AF targets, like 14-16 bit functionality, like frame rate control, like fast card writes, like programmable shooting, like lens coding, etc etc...

 

The R10 is going to need to be a convincing camera to have an ice cubes chance in hell for Leica to sell all they can make. This in a world where only pro's will afford these things, and for pro's even changing the software they use is risky. I suspect if it doesnt work out, we wont be here to discuss it further. But IMO thats a fair bit down the track from a large OVF and a blatant dumbness with a willingness to use your dusty lenses at any price.

[marknorton]

Not sure what OVF is...

[jdlaing]

Not sure what OVF is...

 

Optical Viewfinder ala prism or mirror as opposed to EVF or Electronic Viewfinder that is an image like television be it however crude.

[marknorton]

Thank you!

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[rosuna]

I don't have any information, but I see three possible lines for a future reflex system.

 

The first one is a manual focus (with electronic focus confirmation) system and typical Leica lenses (aperture ring, all-metal, DoF marks, etc.). I think this was possible three or four years ago (lower risk, wider customer base). On the other hand, this "concept" is the same of the M system, and both systems overlap. It is unlikely Leica will follow this route.

 

The second one is a revised R system: full frame camera, AF lenses... The problem here is competition (technology, costs, scale of production, world-wide distribution and repair services...). Sony will offer this year a 24MP full frame camera with AF Zeiss lenses, and the price will be lower than many believe. Canon will present the replacement of the 5D very soon, and we can expect something from Nikon... and later from Pentax (maybe next year). Leica cannot go this route either.

 

The third one consists in taking Hasselblad as a model for a future reflex line of products. Expensive, the highest image quality, sophisticated but focused on a particular kind of customer (studio, landscapes)... I don't know if Leica will go for a medium format system, some kind of hybrid system (with R compatibility) or what. This is the more probable route for Leica. The problem here is that medium format prices are plumbing too. Mamiya is offering 22MP systems for less than 9.000 euros (VAT included), although the image quality is questionable, and that resolution is 35mm territory at this moment. This puts a lot of pressure on Hasselblad, and on any future Leica product. Think on 30 MP or more, and prices below those of Hasselblad.

[stevelap]

I don't have any information, but I see three possible lines for a future reflex system.

 

The first one is a manual focus (with electronic focus confirmation) system and typical Leica lenses (aperture ring, all-metal, DoF marks, etc.). I think this was possible three or four years ago (lower risk, wider customer base). On the other hand, this "concept" is the same of the M system, and both systems overlap. It is unlikely Leica will follow this route.

 

The second one is a revised R system: full frame camera, AF lenses... The problem here is competition (technology, costs, scale of production, world-wide distribution and repair services...). Sony will offer this year a 24MP full frame camera with AF Zeiss lenses, and the price will be lower than many believe. Canon will present the replacement of the 5D very soon, and we can expect something from Nikon... and later from Pentax (maybe next year). Leica cannot go this route either.

 

The third one consists in taking Hasselblad as a model for a future reflex line of products. Expensive, the highest image quality, sophisticated but focused on a particular kind of customer (studio, landscapes)... I don't know if Leica will go for a medium format system, some kind of hybrid system (with R compatibility) or what. This is the more probable route for Leica. The problem here is that medium format prices are plumbing too. Mamiya is offering 22MP systems for less than 9.000 euros (VAT included), although the image quality is questionable, and that resolution is 35mm territory at this moment. This puts a lot of pressure on Hasselblad, and on any future Leica product. Think on 30 MP or more, and prices below those of Hasselblad.

I tend to agree and consider that something along the lines of your option three is what Leica have in mind, especially considering Dr. Kaufmann's 'larger than full-frame' comments.

 

Let's not forget that the R9/DMR combo (digital back for a 35mm SLR) was unique and therefore differentiated Leica's DSLR from all of the others (whether the design was a forced compromise and if the project was a success is another argument). I think that the 'R10' will need to be similarly different, in order to stand a chance of both satisfying legacy R glass owners and carving out a new niche in the market.

 

Whatever emerges we can be sure of one thing, it is going to be very expensive.