Does Leica know how to fix SDS?

[dalippe]

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Hang on a minute, this sounds to me like it could be a battery LOAD problem rather than a firmware glitch. Batteries do not behave in a linear manner, which means that they can behave differently under different circumstances.

 

As I understand it, the camera is shutting down during, or after, heavy use of the buffer during continuous shooting but the camera comes back to life after the battery is removed and replaced.

 

Continuous shooting places a heavy load load on the battery because power is needed to:

1. meter the scene

2. display the metering result in the VF

3. operate the shutter

4. read from the sensor and load into the buffer

5. rewind the shutter

6. display the preview on the LCD (if this option is chosen)

7. read from the buffer and download into the SD card

8. update the battery indicator/shots remaining window

9. carry out other 'housekeeping' routines such as clearing down a portion of the buffer

10 and probably some other things I haven't thought of

 

OTOH, starting up the camera after the battery is replaced places a much lighter load on the battery because the camera only needs to carry out a self-diagnostic, which is probably little more than checking the state of flags (bits) in a register, and supplying power to the battery indicator/shots remaining window.

 

The more a battery is put under load the more it discharges and the more its internal resistance drops until eventually the charge left in the battery is not enough to support the load and we say that the battery is flat. At this point the battery's internal resistance is very low but, owing to chemical recombinations, it will quickly recover to a limited extent when the load is removed.

 

Bearing the above in mind, and sorry for the lengthy but necessary explanation, it is quite conceivable that continuous shooting is placing a heavy enough load on a partially discharged battery that will appear to be charged after it is removed from the camera (which also removes the load) and is replaced in the camera.

 

Don't be fooled by the charge indicator (I've bored at length on this topic on this forum before ) because NO charge indicator will give a realistic indication of the charge in a battery - only a disharge test, where a battery is placed under load for a short time to see how it's internal resistance behaves, will.

 

So, does this mean that the battery is a dud? No, not necessarily, it probably means that it is far enough discharged that it is struggling to cope with the load of continuous shooting but you won't know it because the battery charge indicator can't tell you.

 

What's the fix? If you're planning to shoot continuously then take plenty of fully charged batteries with you and change to a fresh one frequently.

 

 

Pete, the former battery back-up system design engineer.

 

Hi Pete,

 

Thanks for the very informative post. I can't quite tell whether or not the following fact will change your mind: I have at times, after ejecting and reinserting such a battery, successfully shot many additional frames, some of which were shot in the rapid-fire manner that caused the problem. Looking at a recent folder of pictures that was interrupted by such a problem, I see one with 30 frames post-crash. Among these 30 are four groups of two or three shots shot in rapid succession.

 

So after reinsertion the battery did not merely *appear* charged. It was charged enough for some meaningful use. But I'm not sure if the word "appear" was very important in what you said. What do you think? Is this still consistent with your understanding of battery physics?

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[farnz]

... So after reinsertion the battery did not merely *appear* charged. It was charged enough for some meaningful use. But I'm not sure if the word "appear" was very important in what you said. What do you think? Is this still consistent with your understanding of battery physics?

Dalippe,

 

It could be because it's a case of charge threshholds - and by that I mean that the level of charge in the battery you were using may not have been enough to cope with the initial volley of continuous shots but there may have been just enough to cope with 2 or 3 in rapid succession later. Unfortunately we'd have to use a healthy degree of supposition either way because battery behaviour is not an exact science and there are a number of factors such as temperature, battery condition, characteristic of the load, the type of battery, its age, the number of cycles it's had that can significantly change its behaviour.

 

My guess is that Leica has crammed as much battery capacity as it can into the space availabe but under heavy load the battery might struggle. This is not really a design fault, but rather coming up against physical limitations. Leica could have used a larger capacity battery but that would have meant a physically larger battery which would mean a larger, heavier camera which was undesirable.

 

I can't say for sure that there's not something odd happening with the firmware but it seems conceivable to me that the battery could be at the root of the phenomenon and, if so, you might send your M8 to Solms needlessly and spend some time wishing you had it in your hand.

 

My suggestion would be to acquire additional proprietary batteries (the performance of after market varieties is not certain and might perhaps affect your warranty) change them frequently and monitor the occurence of 'camera sleep'. I might be quite wrong about the problem being battery related but at least for the meantime you'll have your camera in your hand rather than sending it to Solms where it might stay for a little while and be returned with no fault found.

 

Pete.

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie,

 

I believe you've had a pretty trouble free M8 experience. Does your "Me too" apply only to suspecting a firmware glitch, or also to having had this problem recently (as in after loading the new firmware)? I ask because from what you've said, we have good reason to believe your hardware is in working order so it certainly lends weight to the firmware theory.

 

David

 

Yes, I had this happen just recently. Take a shot, then "white screen..." then pull the battery and replace. And then keep shooting fine... so it wasn't that the battery had no power. The battery appeared to be about a quarter full (and I would usually replace it around then but in the heat of shooting sometimes there isn't time).

 

However, perhaps the battery was low enough to be affected by load, but as the original poster said, I could resume shooting... So I'm beginning to suspect a firmware condition perhaps. Of course, it still could be triggered by an electrical problem, like a battery not delivering enough current.

[adan]

I do practically no shooting in "C" mode, so I can't speak to that aspect of the problem.

 

(Just as I have never experienced venetian blinds, because I never, ever use the instant review function)

 

I have had a few instances of temporary lockups that require pulling the battery (showing usually 2 bars out of 3 before and after the lock) - and MOST, and perhaps all, IIRC, involved coolish ambient tempertures. I don't think I had any during the summer months here in Denver - and all the other months tend to be coolish.

 

Pete - BRILLIANT explanations. As you say, there are lots of factors that can affect battery performance, so it can be tricky to exactly replicate one battery's failure mode(s) in another battery in a different time and place.

 

All one can do is identify suspect conditions (colder temps, continuous shooting, partial discharge, etc.) and understand that the more factors are present (shooting "C" in the cold) or the more intensely the factors are present (-10C vs. 0C vs. +20C), the more likely they will combine to freeze the camera. And then try to avoid combining them.

[Guest rweisz]

So after all this conjecture and theorizing what's the answer? More importantly, considering there are so many people reporting this problem, why isn't there an answer from Leica? Is the battery capacity not enough for the electronics? If so then they need to replace them with more powerful batteries. Or put something in the firmware that warns when the capacity is below where the camera can function reliably.

 

I've been using battery-operated cameras since the mid-80's and pro digitals since the late 90's. Never have I heard of one where camera after camera kept shutting down and the users just put up with it and the manufacturer didn't lift a finger. This sounds like more than a small number of people. But then, it's obvious that a lot of shutters have failed too and yet it still is denied it's more than a fluke.

 

I have had a few instances where I had a glowing red light and had to take out the battery and put it back, but that always cured the problem. I figured I'd just overrun the buffer and/or card, and that the M8 wasn't really made to be run flat-out in "C" mode. But since I rarely do it I haven't had the problem that often. And I haven't noticed it more in the latest firmware. If it's happening more often to people lately it could be just that the cameras are reaching the point where whatever is failing.

[dalippe]

Just a point of clarification-- because I mentioned C mode in one post, this thread seems to have veered off a bit and messages are now written as if the problem exclusively or mostly in C mode. In fact, I never use C mode for actual photography and therefore this has usually happened to me while taking many pictures in a row in S mode. I mentioned C mode because I once managed to reproduce it while testing at home in C mode.

[dalippe]

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So after all this conjecture and theorizing what's the answer? More importantly, considering there are so many people reporting this problem, why isn't there an answer from Leica? Is the battery capacity not enough for the electronics? If so then they need to replace them with more powerful batteries. Or put something in the firmware that warns when the capacity is below where the camera can function reliably.

 

I've been using battery-operated cameras since the mid-80's and pro digitals since the late 90's. Never have I heard of one where camera after camera kept shutting down and the users just put up with it and the manufacturer didn't lift a finger. This sounds like more than a small number of people. But then, it's obvious that a lot of shutters have failed too and yet it still is denied it's more than a fluke.

 

I have had a few instances where I had a glowing red light and had to take out the battery and put it back, but that always cured the problem. I figured I'd just overrun the buffer and/or card, and that the M8 wasn't really made to be run flat-out in "C" mode. But since I rarely do it I haven't had the problem that often. And I haven't noticed it more in the latest firmware. If it's happening more often to people lately it could be just that the cameras are reaching the point where whatever is failing.

 

I think the conclusion is that while many have experienced this problem, few have tried to have it repaired. So the answer to the question which is the subject of this thread is "We don't know."

 

Alas, last night one of my bodies failed badly enough (the one that has exhibited the problem more often) that it obviously needs to go back to Leica. After turning it on (to either C or S mode) I would take one shot and see a preview. But the frame number of the preview would be labeled 0 rather than 1, the number of shots remaining would move to zero, and I would be unable to recall the photograph. The only way to get the shutter to fire again would be to remove and reinsert battery.

 

This happened perhaps ten times in a row. Between incidents, I was able to change battery and SD cards, and try these batteries and SD cards in my other body which worked fine. When battery or SD card was moved back to the faulty body, it would fail again. So there is no doubt something is amiss with this M8.

 

It is going back to Solms. With any luck, I'll have it back before the M10 is released...

 

In the interest of full disclosure this M8 did once get some wine on it at a friend's wedding. I had experienced the problem previous to that, and noticed no particular change in its behavior after the incident. But last night's behavior was the worst I have ever seen and I suppose it is at least possible that it is a very delayed reaction (months) to the wine incident...

 

David

[Guest rweisz]

I've been keeping telling myself that I can't conclude anything about the M8 as a whole from the number of complaints/failure reports on forums. But everyone I know (seventeen at last count) offline who has an M8 has experienced at least some recurrant problems and eight of them (including mine) needed to be sent to Solms. So as the days go by it's getting harder for me not to think that in terms of every (or at least the majority) M8's needing factory repairs might be a matter of when, not if.

[vanhulsenbeek]

Dalippe,--------------------

My suggestion would be to acquire additional proprietary batteries (the performance of after market varieties is not certain and might perhaps affect your warranty) change them frequently and monitor the occurence of 'camera sleep'.

Pete.

 

 

There is my main lesson from this thread: have enough batteries around and do not forget: a quarter full battery means: immediate replacement by a fully charged colleague!.

[farnz]

... have enough batteries around and do not forget: a quarter full battery means: immediate replacement by a fully charged colleague!.

Sander,

 

I couldn't agree more. Personally I have three Leica batteries that are regularly cycled. I always download images from my card at the end of the day and reformat it in the camera; I then swap out the battery with the next fresh one, recharge the swapped battery/ies and the camera's ready for the next day. I rarely get through more than 1 battery in a day.

 

I've shot around 13,000 images in 13 months and been thankfully free of this occurrence. In the past I've had the occasional camera lockup, remove and replace battery and carry on but not since the 1.201 firmware update. Touch wood.

 

Pete.

[jaapv]

I've been keeping telling myself that I can't conclude anything about the M8 as a whole from the number of complaints/failure reports on forums. But everyone I know (seventeen at last count) offline who has an M8 has experienced at least some recurrant problems and eight of them (including mine) needed to be sent to Solms. So as the days go by it's getting harder for me not to think that in terms of every (or at least the majority) M8's needing factory repairs might be a matter of when, not if.

 

Without wanting to discount you experience - Nine known m8's in my case - No camera-failure induced repairs. As valid an opinion as the opposite. I agree, in an ideal world no camera should fail - period. But unfortunately...etc... The real proportion is known only to Leica, and they are not telling. Maybe they should, to lay speculation to rest.

[photolandscape]

This is NOT SDS. SDS the camera dies completely with no functions working in the menu items and also the camera may fire with a change of battery but still no menu items will work. Been here done that twice it is not SDS and it only happened to a certain amount of Bodies in the beginning of production. There have been no reports lately that I heard or know about since than.

 

Actually, what you describe Guy sounds exactly like the problem I experienced when I tried to photograph the space shuttle launch two weeks ago. The shutter fired, but beyond that the camera was deader than a door nail--no menu, no lcd, no processing going on immediately after the shot (45 sec. exposure), no led blinking to assure me that things were ok. My body (M8, that is), is an early one--XXX17XX. I am going back and forth with Leica about having it repaired, but it is no longer under warranty, so not sure what's going to happen. While I am sorry to hear that you have experienced the problem, I am glad to know I am not alone and that Leica may know what to do about it (replace the capacitor).

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Sounds like SDS i would call them and tell them. It would not hurt at all. Look on customer forum I posted all the contact info for Leica. I bet a dozen donuts this is exactly what happened to you , sounds right in line with the SDS issue. If you don't tell them it may sit in Germany on a bench trying to figure it out. We have been there and done that and we already know the answer. LOL

[Guest rweisz]

I am going back and forth with Leica about having it repaired, but it is no longer under warranty, so not sure what's going to happen.

 

All M8's have a 2 year factory warranty and the very first one's were delivered in the fall of '06. Why would yours not be under warranty?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I asked the same question in a PM . The only reason maybe a used camera. Not sure if these warranties transfer. I doubt they do