M8 'Back to reality'

[rwfreund]

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I had a similar thing (maybe) happen to me today. This was the first time I have had this exact symptom in over 9000 frames spread over two bodies.

In my case, I was operating in manual mode. The metering indicators seemed to be working just fine, but the shutter release produced no results. Solution was to remove and re-insert the battery.

I am using firmware 1.201

-bob

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[sisoje]

Re: battery issue/death.

I had my "first" M8 replaced by Leica NJ with new one after the second episode of sudden "drain" of power. This problem started last summer very rarely: I would put a freshly charged battery, shoot a few shots, and than all the power was gone. Fresh battery would be the cure. I lived with it for a while. I even got a second M8 (my proof of loving this system).

The "syndrome" kept on coming back from time to time. I was calm altogether until it came back on the important "paid" shoot. I had enough!

I sent the camera to NJ in November. It came back "repaired". The diagnosis was: replaced c. board. I started using the camera daily, again. All was OK until January. Same s*it again! I was furious. Contacted NJ again with the help of my dealer. Sent the camera again with the promise that it "might" be replaced. Got the loaner from Leica. After 2 weeks I got a brand spanking new M8. The replacement is perfect (so far), same as my second body.

 

Re: battery quantity.

I have 6 batteries. Call me crazy. Now, they all provide proper juice...

 

Re: battery in cold weather.

This winter in Toronto was cold (and snowy),. Still is, eh. I did a few shoots on extreme cold (sunny) days here in T.O. Not a hick up.

 

I am keeping my M8 kit. I find it very useful as a complementary system to my EOS. I would be much happier if I did not have the problems, but if that is a trade off for all the great images that I got with M8 (that I would not have if I did not have it) than , that's fine.

Sometimes I can not bring my 1Ds MKII and the lens kit. Too big, too pro, too everything... M8 fits just perfect in that case.

[KM-25]

I've thought about selling out, too, and for the same reasons -- I reported my own problem here a few days ago, when the camera quit in 32F/1C temperatures. The thing that has stopped me is that the glass is great, and the usability is wonderful, the camera is fun to use, and I have high hopes for the next version, the M9. However, if somebody told me today that there would be no M9, the M8 would be gone tomorrow. Not only do I not trust the M8, I wouldn't trust the M8 with a backup.

 

For my non-fun photography, I've begun re-enlarging my Nikon system, and I will tell you, the D3 and D300 are pretty easy to take when all you want to do is think about the image, and not about the camera.

 

JC

 

Well put.

 

I came very close to selling my M8 as well with the recent announcements of "non-upgrades" but I like using it too much, even paid for a 35mm 1.4 Aspheric today.

 

But....there seems to be a real problem on this site in which there is denial. The denial is that there are design flaws that make the M8 unreliable....yes, all of them!!

 

I know 13 pros who have had or still do have the M8 ( none of which who shoot weddings ) who have had lock ups of all kinds that require a battery pull. Some have had it completely die and need to go in for service. Only one of them posted here.

 

As far as M8's go, I think mine is pretty darn good, no focus issues, better performance with AWB. But I will never use this or even two M8's by them selves for pro use.

 

Just because some of you are lucky and have not had the same issues with your M8 as other people does not mean that the M8 is free of certain design flaws. You could very well go without ever having a major problem. Or, your turn could be next....

 

Either way, I think the OP's choice to sell the camera is well founded. Compared to other cameras of the digital genre, the M8 is an enormous risk. The problems are well documented and pros who are *extremely* well known who have had problems with the M8 who do NOT post on a internet forum gave up on it long ago.

 

Do you know why that is? Brilliant well known if not famous photographers do not have time to beta and charlie test flawed cameras. They have many tools to choose from and will move on very, very quickly if something is not working.

 

I have noticed that is ****Always*** the same people too who seem to insist that no one should give up on the M8 without a ridiculous time erroding fight. That to me speaks of a serious lack of empathy and a one size fits all mentality.

 

My M8 has had issues with lockups that require a battery removal, enough to where I would call it a design flaw and not a serial number specific problem. The moment something goes wrong to the point that it has to dissapear for months on end it will be sold after repair and I will never buy another Leica digital product again.

 

I had two Canon 5D's with well over 100,000 frames each. Out of all that use at high altitude, heavy rain, snow, cold, etc, the only problem I ever had was one lockup from a poorly mounted 70-200 and a faulty on / off switch that gave out most likely due to heavy moisture on an assignment.

 

I think the advice many of you give on here is great, but the bottom line is this: If a component in the camera makes some M8's subject to significant problems such as lockups or even completly dying, then it is common sense that the particular component might not be of good enough quality to be used in full production.

 

That my friends makes the ENTIRE M8 line subject to problems and THAT is what this guy is so ticked about.

 

Why on EARTH is that so hard to understand?

[sisoje]

I would not stop him selling his M8... If he is more happy with $500 P&S, why spoil the party?

No issues there.

M8 is not perfect. Far from it. But, it's so fun shooting with it:)

(Some) "Professionals" change gear like dirty socks... Nothing new there. You can read about it all over the net. Nikon to Canon (last year), Canon to Nikon this year. Just look at our friend Guy M:D . If some pros dumped M8 it's not a "seal of death". So what?

Just as a parallel story, look at Canon 1D MKIII: if you read the net, you would think nobody is using this model. Wrong! My dealer can't get them enough to stock.

Internet foruming and blogging can sometimes create a monster.

It's recommended that person should stay clear form it, and good remedy is go out and shoot. Even if it's cold (and camera might die...).

[blakley]

But....there seems to be a real problem on this site in which there is denial. The denial is that there are design flaws that make the M8 unreliable....yes, all of them!!

 

...

 

Just because some of you are lucky and have not had the same issues with your M8 as other people does not mean that the M8 is free of certain design flaws. You could very well go without ever having a major problem. Or, your turn could be next....

 

...

 

I think the advice many of you give on here is great, but the bottom line is this: If a component in the camera makes some M8's subject to significant problems such as lockups or even completly dying, then it is common sense that the particular component might not be of good enough quality to be used in full production.

 

In the interests of full disclosure, my M8 has never had a failure which required any recovery action more difficult than removing and reinserting the battery - and even this has only happened twice. Having said this....

 

It's of course very difficult to say whether all M8s are unreliable or just some - in the absence of statistics only Leica has and in the absence of information about what component is failing and what the failure mode is. Still, I think the quoted attitude is the correct one to adopt until we have better information. Given that both shutters and electronic components seem to be failing after as many as many thousands of frames shot, this does not look like a "bathtub curve" failure pattern, so the sensible thing to do is assume that there is a part which starts unreliable and stays unreliable, but whose time to failure is not yet known.

 

Until the problem is clearly identified and a test for the suspect component developed, I think sooner or later Leica is going to have to consider a warranty extension for the commonly encountered failure modes. And until the problem is clearly identified I think photographers who need to depend on the camera to get work done on a schedule are well justified in using something else.

[tadas]

Did you ever sell your car after its battery died or became weak???

 

We aren't walking around with double batteries for our mobilephones, laptops or cars are we?

[redfalo]

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Andy, I´m sorry to hear that you still have problems with your M8. Mine works flawlessly. Why don´t you ask your dealer (or Solms) to swap the body for a new one?

Great shot, BTW.

[plasticman]

I don't really want to get involved in the private squabble over reliability in a camera I don't personally own, but a major reason I was convinced to buy the (equally unreliable? but much cheaper) R-D1s a couple month's back was the experience of the only two people that I personally know who own(ed) M8s, and who both had multiple reliability issues with the camera. No idea if they finally sold or not, because they are not directly friends but rather fellow Leica enthusiasts.

One of them is/was(?) a member here and I've never seen him post about his problems, incidentally.

 

I personally think the sort of statement "Did you ever sell your car after its battery died or became weak???" is one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.

Maybe you might sell a brand new car if it didn't start when you were on the way to the maternity ward...

[danyves]

Does one sell a laptop after a Death Blue Screen ?

[bayerische]

Jaap,

 

I always have my M2 in the hotel safe, so I lose 1 day of images at the most if the M8 would have a problem. And we know the M2 always works

[bayerische]

Did you ever sell your car after its battery died or became weak???

 

Where did you get that from?!

 

I have NEVER said Andy or anyone else should sell off their M8's.

 

Keep up with the program will you?

[jaapv]

Not a bad idea, but my M3 is so nice now that I do not really carry it into the "war-zone"

Anyway, Andy is on the horns of an interesting dilemma now. He cannot sell the camera, as he is required by law to disclose that he knows that the camera has problems, so he has to have it repaired. After it is repaired the real cause for selling it is removed....

[andym911]

Interesting replies all round.

 

To be clear I won quite a few cameras and shoot a lot...I am not new to Digital,I ahve Canon 30d and a few top lenses as well as the GRD Ricoh.I shoot a lot of film with M6/M7and have enough Leica Glass to keep me going.

 

The purpose of my post was to share the event that finally brought me to decide to sell it.Not to ask for how to prevent it happening again.I have had the M for over a year and it is not the first time it fails me.

I enjoy the IQ a lot but predictability is more important to me.

I sent it to Solms today to be 'fixed' so that I can sell it with a good conscience to a new owner.

 

All this rubbish about spare batteries is nothing else than rubbish.A fully charged battery should work...if a perticular battery is faulty then fine, change it.I ahve interchanged 3 batteries for over a year, thea are all fine.

This is not an M8 bashing thread..just a forum user sharing his experience with his.

 

cheers

 

andy

[bayerische]

Not a bad idea, but my M3 is so nice now that I do not really carry it into the "war-zone"

 

My M2 is not so nice. It's more of a beater in a new cameraleather dress

[jaapv]

I have NEVER said Andy or anyone else should sell off their M8's.

 

And rightly so, everybody should make his own decision. What will your replacement be, Andy? Sticking with Canon or moving to the rather interesting new Nikon line?

But I still think you should carry a spare battery regardless. My battery issues have clearly been user error. And I had an SD card die on me as well....

[andym911]

Jaap

I won't replace it directly, yet

 

Meaning will continue to shoot B&W film on the M's(60-70% of all I shoot) and then use the Ricoh for the carry everywhere:

 

Will then use the 30d with MF Nikon lenses (24, and 45) when it needs to be a bit more color IQ, that is a nice compact combo too, not comparable direclty of course, to the M8 but does a good job.

 

regards

 

Andy

[jaapv]

Andy, see you around on the film and photo forums then. Slip in a Canon shot from time to time when Andreas is not looking

Just use a Leica UV filter to abide by the rules

[plasticman]

Does one sell a laptop after a Death Blue Screen ?

 

This forum is in serious denial. Sad to see that a knee-jerk defensiveness means the level of responses really has sunk so low when members report problems with the camera.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[nick.karras]

This forum is in serious denial. Sad to see that a knee-jerk defensiveness means the level of responses really has sunk so low when members report problems with the camera.

 

Ah, but therein lies the problem; the problem is not with the camera, it's with his camera.

 

If some, potential, Leica M8 customer happens to find this post, he may become dismayed by the supposed "design" problems that led Andy to sell his, and so decide not to purchase one. Each post such as this could be the tipping point for a potential customer, pushing them to seek a photographic solution elsewhere. As such, we shouldn't let people make illegitimate claims, especially ones that they have no evidence for, without telling the whole story;

 

The M8 is a closed-source system. We cannot, legally, know its inner workings and so we cannot comment on the quality of engineering that produced it. We can comment, however, on our experiences with it. Perhaps, if the Leica community were to get its hands on one of the staff's engineering notebooks, it would become clear to them that this is not nearly as simple as they would like it to seem.

 

To Andy: Do as you please, it's your right to do so

 

ϗαϱϱας.

[plasticman]

If some, potential, Leica M8 customer happens to find this post, he may become dismayed by the supposed "design" problems that led Andy to sell his, and so decide not to purchase one. Each post such as this could be the tipping point for a potential customer, pushing them to seek a photographic solution elsewhere. As such, we shouldn't let people make illegitimate claims, especially ones that they have no evidence for, without telling the whole story

 

So in your view the motivation for all the bullying that we've seen over the last few months, the snide comments, the 'mine works fine' responses, the 'stop whining', the general discouragement of anyone critical of the M8 to voice their experiences on this forum, all of that is because you want to make sure potential buyers don't find out about any potential problems their future camera may have?

 

Oh well - this isn't my fight. I already made my decision about the M8.

 

However, I'm hoping that Leica make a better job of the future Ms that I hope they're working on right now.

With defenders who want to suppress knowledge of any faults that Leica cameras may have, I guess the engineers' incentive to actually do better really isn't so great...

 

In my view the honest critics actually do Leica a better service in the long term.