smokysun Posted February 23, 2008 Share #1 Posted February 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) "At the same time the Supervisory Board appointed Dr. Andreas Kaufmann Chairman of the Board of Management for the period until February 28, 2009." i'd like to address the issue of how to turn a company around. this certainly happened at harley davidson (as well a corel, though i think the other example more relevant). maybe the motorcyle people, including sean reid who will avoid acrimonious arguments, can fill us in. if i remember rightly, the issues with the harley were the same: long traditon, declining specs in the product. didn't the employees buy the company? if so, it wasn't a ceo who did the job but the people who have to listen to the customers. Lesson one: leica stopped sponsoring this forum. they won't allow their name in the masthead. andreas has done a great job making it independent, however. i maintain leica did not want to listen to complaints/suggestions/etc. from the ground. Lesson two: no amount of pr can fix a bugged product. Lesson three: like harley owners, the leica steadfast are a club. the loyal do not want everyone to have a panasonic called a leica and the small sensor pan/leica people chased off the forum. Lesson four: harley owners, despite a pack mentality, like to think of themselves as individuals. the new owner immediately buys all kinds of stuff to modify the look of the bike. hd must make a fortune off these. Lesson six: put out a superior product and be master of a niche business. make your buyers/customers/critics look good in their own eyes. i don't mean this as a negative. i've the d-lux 2, the d-2 (if it ever makes it back from solmes without a dead sensor), and seven r lenses which i use on canon slrs with confirm adaptors with results i love. Lesson seven: keep up with the times. digital is it, and will only get better. so, any thoughts? and let's try to keep it civil and on topic. thanks, wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 23, 2008 Posted February 23, 2008 Hi smokysun, Take a look here new start: leica vs. harley davidson. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stnami Posted February 23, 2008 Share #2 Posted February 23, 2008 Ducati Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokysun Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted February 23, 2008 Ducati Motor Holding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia interesting reading. for a different kind of rider than the harley folks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 23, 2008 Share #4 Posted February 23, 2008 Aaarrggghhhh!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted February 23, 2008 Share #5 Posted February 23, 2008 I can see a few parallels with the Harley/Leica company strategies Ducati ownership (1950 - 1967) Government IRI management years (In 1953 split into Ducati Meccanica, and Ducati Elettronica, now called Ducati Energia SpA) (1967 - 78) Government EFIM management (control over day-to-day factory operations) (1967 - 73) Headed By Montano (1973 - 78) Headed by De Eccher (1978 - 85) Subsidiary of state-subsidized VM Group (1985 - 1996) Cagiva Group ownership (1996 - 2006) Texas-Pacific Group ownership and going public Headed by Federico Minoli, 1996-2001 and who returned for 2003-2007 (2006 - present) Investindustrial: Back in Italian Hands Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted February 24, 2008 Share #6 Posted February 24, 2008 Wayne, We don't want too many similarities between a Harley and a Leica M8 ! Here's a pic of my recent Harley Road King as evidence and a list of stuff that I observe in that world. Tick any that you think might apply to the M8. They are owned by users who value ownership more than usability. You have to keep tinkering with them. Customers accept and defend problems that competitor's clients wouldn't tolerate. It's never completely fixed. Half of the return is social and brand management. Never use one for work (in a northern climate at least). You spend a ton of money to get what should have been supplied in the first place. Never go anywhere without a tool box. Quality is crap - "chrome is porous Sir, it will rust if exposed to water", "we don't plate the chassis as we don't use much salt on the roads in the Florida". Design is 20 years behind the market leaders. They tend to be very low mileage vehicles. Half the owners don't have a friggin' clue how to ride. 75% of all rides are to the Harley store on dry & sunny days. They keep their value. Professionals don't take them seriously. oh ... I must add ... you get stopped continuously by old age pensioners ... "excuse me for asking, but how much does one like that cost ??? My Granddad used to have one ...." :D Rolo Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46177-new-start-leica-vs-harley-davidson/?do=findComment&comment=491345'>More sharing options...
smokysun Posted February 24, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted February 24, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) thanks, rolo, that's a fun, great, informative reply! i guess the qestion is: how do they get away with it? i really should have excepted the m8 on a number of accounts, though owners may feel all apply. i think that's the direction leica products need to go. despite it's imperfections, i've seen gorgeous m8 pictures and lots of people have settled down with it. all the camera makers have had to deal with similar problems. unfortunately, the r10 will be out of my price range, though i'm positive it will be a desirable piece of work. thanks again. i just really learned something. (a good friend, a retired professor, loves his harley, especially gunning down the street and setting off all the car alarms.) best, wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted February 24, 2008 Share #8 Posted February 24, 2008 thanks, rolo,that's a fun, great, informative reply! i guess the qestion is: how do they get away with it? They get away with it because they're not selling a product, they're selling a lifestyle. And you can't have the lifestyle if you don't have the product. If you look in the dictionary under "Outlaw" you'll see a guy on hog; if you look under "Insurance Agent," you'll find a guy on a Gold Wing. Same thing with Leica. It's a club. If you don't have the product, you can't be in the club. Remember when Mark Norton tore down the M8? When did you ever see anything like that on a Nikon or Canon site? How about the guys who've gone into the accessory business, figuring out new chargers and that thumb-lever deal? Don't see that on the Canon site. Even the pictures here tend to have a weird clubbish look -- I don't know what it is, but they don't look like Canon shots. So -- Leica's a club. A club isn't a bad market, it you can keep it alive. The question is whether Leica is losing the club. And the odd thing to me, about the whole Lee debacle, is that Lee did seem to be a Leica club guy. Maybe, somehow, *that* was his problem. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 24, 2008 Share #9 Posted February 24, 2008 Remember when Mark Norton tore down the M8? When did you ever see anything like that on a Nikon or Canon site? John, you can find too many tear downs ... anatomies of Canon and Nikon cameras on Japanese and Chinese chat boards. In fact, Canon and Nikon tear down their own cameras and bring them on country wide tours in Japan, and include these kind of material in their official or semi-official guide books. The Japanese companies are far more open than Leica and their management, together with design engineers frequently appear on interviews to answer questions regarding their products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 24, 2008 Share #10 Posted February 24, 2008 Harley had serious quality problems that they resolved. Also HD`s don`t cost 5x the nearest competitor. Was a joke here at one time. If you saw an oil spot in the parking lot, what was parked there? Harley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted February 24, 2008 Share #11 Posted February 24, 2008 By the way, what happend to lesson five? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bernd Banken Posted February 24, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 24, 2008 another fine example is my favourit guitar brand "Fender": Founded by Mr. Fender who could not play his own insruments he listened to the artists and invented and manufactured models which are uptodate until now. There have been dark clouds in the past when Leo Fender sold his Co. to CBS in the beginning of the seventies, but later a manager who knew about the "Spirit" of the brand guided Fender back to success under his control. So Doc Kaufmann should create a simple Excel-spreadsheet with a lot of columns and should fulfill the different X to compare Leica to Fender, HD and Ducati and, and..... Bernd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-IIIf Posted February 24, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 24, 2008 Tick any that you think might apply to the M8. Rolo, that's a great list and this Ducati rider fully subscribes to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephan_w Posted February 24, 2008 Share #14 Posted February 24, 2008 I have both and can say there is no comparison possible. Harley serves customers who love the look and feel of an old motorbike, and accept that it is heavy, slow and a bit costy. Harley is also made for the american market, where drivers have to accept severe speedlimits and use other signs to distinguish themselve. Harley buy a lot of parts from abroad, and they are living from selling their brand instead of the product. And it works somehow. Also, Harley fits well in an environment were customers get older more and more. The demography help them a lot. This is not the case for Leica. Leica is very different. They manufacture their cameras and lenses in highpriced Germany, the cameras and lenses are up to date to the competitors (except for price) and fill a small niche that seam to be to small for living actually. They came a bit late in the digtial market, but probably in few years things will be different (if they survive till then). But there is another reason why Leica and HD are absolutely not the same. HD-Motorbikes are for people who are not motorbike drivers, but for motorbike owners (there is only a HDownergroup), this means they make motorbikes who don't need a good motorbike for driving, but like to have one that is nice to look at. An average motorbiker will have fun on a HD, but not on the mentioned Ducati. For Leica it's just the other way round: A Leica is for experienced photographers only, who know how to focus, how to adjust WB and so on. This is a very limiting factor when you can get a nice camera that focus well at every supermarket for 300 $ An average photographer will have good results on a Nikon, but not on a Leica. And I think this makes all the difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted February 24, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 24, 2008 Ducati The Darmah Project Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted February 24, 2008 Share #16 Posted February 24, 2008 Harley had serious quality problems that they resolved. Also HD`s don`t cost 5x the nearest competitor. Was a joke here at one time. If you saw an oil spot in the parking lot, what was parked there? Harley. HDs don't cost 5x the nearest competitor... HUH? Heck they don't... Unless you get a base model Sportster... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 24, 2008 Share #17 Posted February 24, 2008 Well, we are all crap consultants if we jump straight to the solution... I think this requires a 20-day scoping study, then a pilot exercise. It is clear from what we know so far that their ERP requires replacement, both back and front offices. If we are to come up with anything meaningful I also think we should conduct a function point analysis of Leica, Ducati, Fender, Harley Davidson, Lotus, etc. Only by doing this can we hope to use the Sword of Damocles to cut this Gordian Knot and deploy our ducks in a row, singing from the same songsheet and navigating directly towards the slimmest end of the pigmentally challenged pachyderm. If anyone would like to come for a scuba in my think tank and whiteboard this next week, please get your people to contact my people. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 24, 2008 Share #18 Posted February 24, 2008 I agree Bill. We're got our backs to the wall, so we have to put our best foot forwards, allow ourselves some blue sky thinking and vision that we're in a green fields situation but avoiding the metaphorical cow pats that could stymie our great leap forward. Remember no man is an island - except for Fred Madagascar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted February 24, 2008 Share #19 Posted February 24, 2008 Only by doing what Bill and Steve suggest will we get back on the glide-path to success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted February 24, 2008 Share #20 Posted February 24, 2008 ...and we need a new visionionary messiah. Spike Lee? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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