fielden Posted February 5, 2008 Share #1 Posted February 5, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Inspired by all the great b&w photos seen on here, I have found myself converting everything to b&w and whilst I am happy with my conversions on screen, the prints i get on my canon pixma 5000 and my epson 2100 are far from satisfactory. I generally print straight from photoshop onto permajet gloss 271 or permajet oyster. I really am a beginner when it comes to printing and I have searched the forums and read the threads that I have found but I can't seem to find the basic answers and info. So what is wrong with my prints? Well there is colour casts for one thing and I don't seem to get the range of tones on paper that I am getting on screen and the prints just seem dull and flat. So, forgetting the canon printer, is the epson 2100 capable of producing exhibition quality b&w with the standard epson ink set? When printing b&w do I print in colour or tick the greyscale printing box. Do I need a RIP? If so what is it, what does it do and how do i use it. Sorry for so many basic questions but I really want to concentrate on getting this right now so any information or links which may help would be most appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 Hi fielden, Take a look here B&W Inkjet Printing. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
35photo Posted February 5, 2008 Share #2 Posted February 5, 2008 Are you using paper profiles? If not you should. Is your screen calibrated? I have an Epson R2400 and I use Imageprint RIP and get great B&W images. I found the Epson driver is Ok for get B&W images but with Imageprint it just took it to a whole another level. Now my B&W prints are exhibition quality and neutral. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Morrison Posted February 5, 2008 Share #3 Posted February 5, 2008 The colour cast to which you refer is called 'metamerism' and can present itself differently according to what colour temperature the light is that the print will be veiwed under. You can tweak your print to favour one form of light over another by using one of the colour channels to achieve your desired B&W neutrality rather than just going to grey scale. Light sources have many colour temperatures eg. daylight = 5200K (approx), tungsten light = 2800K - 3400K, most flourescent lights are not full spectrum and can really make an inkjet look weird. You will have to find your way. I use inkjet (giclee) for all my colour printing now but am sticking with silver gelatin for black and white because it does not suffer from metamerism and (in my opinion) has inkjet beat for overall appearance. Yours, R. Morrison, M4-P,etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 5, 2008 Share #4 Posted February 5, 2008 Hi Graeme, Epson improved the b&w printing with later printers such as my 3800 which uses several b&w inks to produce the prints, but that doesn't help you. At one time Epson produced a 'grey balancer kit' which was some software that helped you calibrate your printer to produce b&w under the desired lighting conditions. I used to use it on my Epson 950, and while it's fiddly to set up it works reasonably well. You can find a link that discuses the software here... Gray Balancer and a link to the actual download here... 2200 Gray Balancer You'll want to download the zip file at the top of the page under the green 'Great News' heading. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted February 5, 2008 Share #5 Posted February 5, 2008 Graeme, I use a calibrated screen, LR and CS and an Epson R2400. Through trial and error (am still erring lots of times ) I found out that most of the muddiness of the photo's comes from bad post processing. It really helps to twiddle WB, curves, etc. until you have a clear and - for lack of another word - "open" photo. For B&W printing I use a RIP (Quadtone). For color I just stick to the Epson drver, which is pretty good. I make very sure I choose the correct paper ICC, choose the RIP as "driver" and have printer management set to OFF in the last screens before printing. B&W comes out wonderfully on, amongst other, Harman Gloss FB AI, a baryta paper. But I also use the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. Keep smiling. Oh and keep using small pieces of paper for your test prints . Marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted February 6, 2008 Share #6 Posted February 6, 2008 The colour cast to which you refer is called 'metamerism' and can present itself differently according to what colour temperature the light is that the print will be veiwed under. You can tweak your print to favour one form of light over another by using one of the colour channels to achieve your desired B&W neutrality rather than just going to grey scale....Colour casts are different from metamerism: all prints, including silver halide lab prints, appear differently under different types of light. Metamerism refers to individual colours changing in relation to each other in different types of light: in a B&W print different tones will exhibit metamerism when they get different colurs in relation to each other under a particular type of light. The latest Epson printers with K3 inks, and I assume the latest printers of other manufacturers, have eliminated metamerism. On the other hand, having prints just look different in different types of light cannot be eliminated — unless you suspend the laws the physics of light! —Mitch/Bangkok Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 6, 2008 Share #7 Posted February 6, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Graeme: Trying to print B&W with color inks is a losing battle. There will always be some non-linearity which leads to magenta or green or cyan tints at certain points in the tonal range. One can print using only the black ink - although that usually has a cost in tonality and makes the image "grainier". But that's what I did for the past 5 years with an Epson 1800. The real solution (or at least the current best solution) is to get a system that can print using pure black and gray inks. Either one of the speciality 3rd-party inksets - or a printer that comes with gray inks as well as color. I just upgraded to an Epson 3800 - same K3 inks as Marko's R2400 but in a slightly different mechanism (and with a 17" paper width). There's an HP printer with gray inks as well. Don't know if Canon makes one yet. I hate to have to say "buy a new printer", but the fact is that technology has moved on from CcMmYK to CcMmYKkk, and that is the route for monochrome prints. What I especially love about the Epson approach is that the gray inks and the color inks are available at the same time. I make images in which I mix monochrome with selective coloring, so they must be printed in color. The Epson still prints the monochrome parts of the picture dead neutral even when there is color in other parts of the picture - something that dedicated monochrome inks can't do at all. A far more flexible approach. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/44612-bw-inkjet-printing/?do=findComment&comment=475414'>More sharing options...
35photo Posted February 6, 2008 Share #8 Posted February 6, 2008 From my experience the best B&W print you are going to get from an inkjet printer is if you are using Imageprint RIP there are others out there. I feel imageprint does the best job IMO. Its not cheap either so you have to be pretty serious about it. Check out this link this guy does a great job explaining: Monochrome Printing 2005 Marko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scho Posted February 6, 2008 Share #9 Posted February 6, 2008 Inspired by all the great b&w photos seen on here, I have found myself converting everything to b&w and whilst I am happy with my conversions on screen, the prints i get on my canon pixma 5000 and my epson 2100 are far from satisfactory. I generally print straight from photoshop onto permajet gloss 271 or permajet oyster. I really am a beginner when it comes to printing and I have searched the forums and read the threads that I have found but I can't seem to find the basic answers and info. So what is wrong with my prints? Well there is colour casts for one thing and I don't seem to get the range of tones on paper that I am getting on screen and the prints just seem dull and flat. So, forgetting the canon printer, is the epson 2100 capable of producing exhibition quality b&w with the standard epson ink set? When printing b&w do I print in colour or tick the greyscale printing box. Do I need a RIP? If so what is it, what does it do and how do i use it. Sorry for so many basic questions but I really want to concentrate on getting this right now so any information or links which may help would be most appreciated. Use your 2100 with QTR for B&W printing. Download at link below for your platform (PC or Mac). QuadToneRIP Overview Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted February 6, 2008 Share #10 Posted February 6, 2008 I've set up my 2100 with GenerationsQuad inks from MediaStreet Generations QuadBlack (GQ & GQ2) and print using QuadToneRip. Excellent inks for both matte and lustre type surfaces. Prints can be toned warm/neutral/cold in your desired ammount. For colour I use my R800. - Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted February 7, 2008 Share #11 Posted February 7, 2008 I've set up my 2100 with GenerationsQuad inks from MediaStreet Generations QuadBlack (GQ & GQ2) and print using QuadToneRip. Excellent inks for both matte and lustre type surfaces. Prints can be toned warm/neutral/cold in your desired ammount. For colour I use my R800. - Carl I got good results with QTR and my 2100 using Epson´s original inkset. Same warmth control there. That said, my new 3800 beats those prints even using Epson´s own driver. But I guess that´s not what you want to hear... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted February 7, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 7, 2008 That said, my new 3800 beats those prints even using Epson´s own driver. But I guess that´s not what you want to hear... On the contrary, I'm glad a printer that is a couple of generations younger and way more expensive makes better prints than my old beast. I picked mine up second hand for a song and am very happy with the performance I get with it considdering what I payed for it. The GQ inks I buy in bulk and refill cartridges. For a mere mortal like me that is fine. For really important stuff I use a good main stream lab or a pro-lab depending on the job. - Carl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted February 8, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 8, 2008 ...Trying to print B&W with color inks is a losing battle. There will always be some non-linearity which leads to magenta or green or cyan tints at certain points in the tonal range. One can print using only the black ink - although that usually has a cost in tonality and makes the image "grainier". But that's what I did for the past 5 years with an Epson 1800. The real solution (or at least the current best solution) is to get a system that can print using pure black and gray inks. Either one of the speciality 3rd-party inksets - or a printer that comes with gray inks as well as color... That used to be true but is no longer so. Even before the latest Epson K3 inks on could print B&W without any colour cast by using the ImagePrint RIP and, now, with the availability of the K3 inks, one can print without colour cast either using ImagePrint, which is execellent, or using the Epson AWB driver. —Mitch/Bangkok Flickr: Photos from Mitch Alland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Posted February 8, 2008 Share #14 Posted February 8, 2008 From my experience the best B&W print you are going to get from an inkjet printer is if you are using Imageprint RIP there are others out there. I feel imageprint does the best job IMO.Its not cheap either so you have to be pretty serious about it. Check out this link this guy does a great job explaining: Monochrome Printing 2005 Marko Marko, The referenced link was great. appreciate the information, I have bookmarked it for future review. Bud Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgenper Posted February 8, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 8, 2008 Just came to think of another web site that is a good resource in this context. Quite possibly it´s referenced within the "Monochrome 2005" text; I just don´t have the time to check. Anyway, here goes: Black And White Digital Printing His "Black only printing" method really works quite well with the 2100 - and it´s FREE! I recall using it for some time before paying for QTR and its greater flexibility (Black only printing makes prints with a warmth about equal to the warmest setting in QTR). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scho Posted February 8, 2008 Share #16 Posted February 8, 2008 Paul Roark has several B&W workflows for various Epson printers that are worth investigating. I currently use his "3MK" black only carbon method for both matte and glossy B&W work. The latter requires a second pass glop overlay, but the results are worth the effort. PaulRoark.com -- Paul Roark's Photographic Home Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
35photo Posted February 8, 2008 Share #17 Posted February 8, 2008 Marko, The referenced link was great. appreciate the information, I have bookmarked it for future review. Bud No problem, Pete Meyers has lots of great useful info. After reading his article and testing out Imageprint myself I was sold on being able to get great B&W prints on inkjet. Marko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fielden Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share #18 Posted February 10, 2008 Thank you everyone. This is very helpful. There is such a lot there to take in and digest, but I will start be downloading the profiles for the paper and try a few prints using that before I shell out for QTR. I will post again with my results. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
medved Posted February 10, 2008 Share #19 Posted February 10, 2008 Check the piezography site for lots of info, some of which you've been referred to already. I'd particularly recommend Exposure 2 for good conversions from color to various b&w including infrared. A dedicated printer is good and you could probably convert the 2100 to one successfully once you're upgrading your printer. I use a 4800 for ABW work that's variably toned, and trying to decide which of the piezography inks to load in a bulk system for my 2400, purchased just for this use. There are lots of good solutions around now as you'll find and it becomes a question of taste and the subject matter. Right now I'd like to have two or 3 dedicated 2400's.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
norm_snyder Posted March 4, 2008 Share #20 Posted March 4, 2008 Since this thread became somewhat inactive, my Epson 1280 has given up the ghost. For years I've used the 1280 with CIS system and Piezography inks, but as I am now going to have to replace it, I am wondering if those of you who have used the K3 and Cone inksets have any further thoughts about the comparison. It would be nice to use the new glossy papers, and I am considering a 3800, but like others, metamerism if of real concern. Are the K3 prints with QTR really neutral? If so, this seems the way to go for exhibition, etc. Otherwise, converting an 1800 or 2400 may make more sense, though it would limit print size. I know this is a subject that others have talked about, but I have had trouble tracking down those threads, or even remembering which site they were on. Thanks, Norm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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