Full Frame Is Here !!!!!!

[mjh]

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The rumours seem to be pointing to a Kodak CCD as the sensor.

The only 36 x 24 mm CCDs listed on Kodak’s website are the KAI-16000 and KAI-11002. Both CCDs are of the interline-transfer variety (rather than the full-frame-transfer sensor Leica is using in the M8), making them unlikely candidates. Furthermore, these sensors require active cooling which pretty much rules them out. Having said that, I agree that if Leica should use a CCD rather than a CMOS chip, Kodak is the most likely source, but it won’t be one of the sensors currently on Kodak’s website.

 

Anyway, procuring a suitable sensor should be the easiest task (why not get Sony’s new 24 MP CMOS sensor?). Overcoming the obstacle of the short flange distance is the really difficult part.

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[lct]

...the cool folks will have their 16MP quiet shutter FF M8's, battered and covered with tape, for about $9K invested over three years, while the doctors and lawyers will be able to buy shiny new M9's in 2009 for about $7K in 2009 dollars. I know which one I want to be...

Haha! cool folks like you will pay more than $10K i'm afraid but this lawyer has spent €3K for his R-D1 in 2004 and €2K for a R-D1s in 2006 for fear that the latter falls apart so you could well be the winner Scott.

 

...Maybe they will reserve the good IR filter for the M9 and let the M8 still proudly show off its pink lenses...

True for the 'M8' i guess but the happy, wealthy and patient beneficiaries of the ultimate upgrade will gain an M9 logo in the same move i bet.

[sdai]

I think there's a (good) reason why a Kodak guy showed up with Dr. Kauffmann at the last LHSA meeting ... a Kodak sensor is a given, whether they're listing it on the web site or not shouldn't matter. It's be there just in time.

 

Light falloff is no longer an issue as we've already seen the results from the offset microlens sensor and software compensation. However, everybody seems to have forgotten to mention about focusing accuracy, with a high pixel count ... likely going to be anywhere between 17MP and 22MP, it's bound to be a critical issue.

 

Will Leica add some sort of focusing assistance or confirmation? that's what I'm expecting to see.

[woodyspedden]

Remember, the sensor is to be CCD!

 

Doesn't that mean a supplier other than EK?

 

Doesn't that also mean a lower power draw?

 

Couldn't they offer--as an accessory, of course--the option of an under-camera battery pack, similar to what Nikon does for D200?

 

Might be able to get two of the current batteries into such a grip/battery pack?

 

And forgetting that speculation--for CCD performance, I think some of us might be willing to sacrifice a bit of battery life.

 

 

I think the best part of this is that the M9 is here, and we already own it.

 

 

--HC

 

No it doesn't mean that at all. The current sensor is CCD and is manufactured by Kodak. I would be willing to bet that with all the good things from an IQ point of view that Leica has achieved using Kodak sensors that they will stick with a winning formula.

 

Since the sensor will be CCD the current draw will not be lowered and probably raised as they process many more pixels to a greater degree. For instance the new Sony sensor at 25 MPx has a dedicted A to D converter for each pixel row. The only way the current draw would be reduced would be to use CMOS sensor technology. CMOS is the lowest power IC technology available.

 

I am not unhappy with CCD at all. I use both technologies (CCD for M8 and CMOS for D3) and both produce very good image quality although the M8, probably because of no AA filtration produces files which right out of the camera are better than the D3. D3 requires more PP work but the end result is a very fine image as well.

 

So I think that what has been revealed bodes well for all of us M8'rs. I just hope that it doesn't take multiple more years for it to be a reality.

 

Woody Spedden

[sandymc]

The only 36 x 24 mm CCDs listed on Kodak’s website are the KAI-16000 and KAI-11002. Both CCDs are of the interline-transfer variety (rather than the full-frame-transfer sensor Leica is using in the M8), making them unlikely candidates. Furthermore, these sensors require active cooling which pretty much rules them out. Having said that, I agree that if Leica should use a CCD rather than a CMOS chip, Kodak is the most likely source, but it won’t be one of the sensors currently on Kodak’s website.

 

Anyway, procuring a suitable sensor should be the easiest task (why not get Sony’s new 24 MP CMOS sensor?). Overcoming the obstacle of the short flange distance is the really difficult part.

 

That's right. So far as I am aware, only two companies produce full-frame sensors of a type useful to Leica right now: Canon and Sony/Nikon. But both of those would need different microlenses at the least. I very much doubt that Canon would play, and I suspect that while Sony/Nikon might supply something, it would only be post a Sony FF, and also post a FF Nikon D3xx (a Nikon 5D killer). So I'd think that if the FF Leica M9 is to appear this year, that leaves something new from Kodak.

 

Sandy

[sdai]

I will be there, my ticket has already been purchased, leaving 9th of August. Of course, I'm going to other places also... Germany, Poland, Italy, Spain, France, Sweden, and what ever else i can fit into 3 months.

 

Gene, I've a ticket booked today with status open ... there's no way that I could confirm my schedule almost 8 months ahead of time.

 

I'm going to Frankfurt and drive to Cologne (perhaps) ... visiting some ex-colleagues may be. Hope I'll see you and Mark, and other forum members there!

[sdai]

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That's right. So far as I am aware, only two companies produce full-frame sensors of a type useful to Leica right now: Canon and Sony/Nikon. But both of those would need different microlenses at the least. I very much doubt that Canon would play, and I suspect that while Sony/Nikon might supply something, it would only be post a Sony FF, and also post a FF Nikon D3xx (a Nikon 5D killer). So I'd think that if the FF Leica M9 is to appear this year, that leaves something new from Kodak.

 

Sandy, DALSA also makes 35mm FF CCD sensors, they have one with 7.2 micron pitch in the catalogue right now, 17MP. See my post above, I bet Leica will stick to Kodak though.

[mjh]

Light falloff is no longer an issue as we've already seen the results from the offset microlens sensor and software compensation.

If anyone has seen a working solution for a 27.8 mm flange distance, than obviously he’s not talking. The M8 with its x1.33 sensor was a major feat already; a 36 x 24 mm version would be something else entirely.

[woodyspedden]

If someone has said this already, I apologize. But one important virtue of FF is that high Iso noise is much easier to manage because of the increased pixel size. The D3 is the shining example of this, as well as the 5D. If it means something like a 2 stop advantage in Iso noise, all things (# pixels at least) otherwise being equal, this would be a deciding factor in our use of the camera for low light imaging. best...Peter

 

Two issues about this. First is how many pixels are they going to stuff in the 24x36 sensor. If they go for, say 16mpx then the pixel dimensions could allow lower noise thus higher ISO's. But if they feel they have to compete with Canon's 22 Mpx and Sony (nee Nikon) 25Mpx then the pixel dimensions will be very small........smaller even than the M8's current dimension.

 

Second point is that Canon, Nikon, Sony all use CMOS sensors which are inherently lower noise than CMOS. Since Leica seems to be wedded to CCD technology they will always be paying a price in the noise realm.

 

Personally I love the IQ from the Kodak CCD sensors and I hope that Leica sticks with them. For the occasions when I need high ISO, or autofocus, or high speed shooting with 3D focus tracking I will stick to my Nikon D3 which is a champ in these areas.

 

Just my humble opinion and YMMV

 

Woody Spedden

[Olsen]

If anyone has seen a working solution for a 27.8 mm flange distance, than obviously he’s not talking. The M8 with it x1.33 sensor was a major feat already; a 36 x 24 mm version would be something else entirely.

 

Agree. This string has turned into a frenzy of daydreams. It is very unfortunate if sales of M8 & updates will suffer because the potential buyers has this religious belief that a FF-M is just around the corner.

[carstenw]

Steven Lee wouldn't be hinting about it if he didn't think it was an almost certainty. Leica has been burned by pre-announcements very recently, and won't be keen to repeat the mistake. However, he does not talk of specs, so we can only guess. I don't think that Leica will try to compete with the 1Ds3, but rather to up the resolution from 10MP and maybe compete with the D3, or maybe even just go their own way. I would guess no more than 16MP. The M Leica doesn't traditionally need that high resolution anyway. High ISO noise is more important, as are accurate framelines.

[4season]

Someone once said that the secret to a happy marriage was "lowered expectations", and I think the same should be said of Leica / Photokina bliss

 

There are lots of ways to make a full sensor M camera now, and, barring some technological breakthrough, most of them involve compromises I'm not so sure I care to make:

 

1) Live with purple fringing and light falloff with wide angle lenses

2) Reduced compatibility with existing lenses, New retrofocus wides required

3) Make the camera body larger, heavier and more expensive

 

In many ways, #3 would be my least favorite option: An added millimeter here and a millimeter there, and before know it, you've got middle-age bloat.

 

Personally, I'm expecting the big news from Photokina to be the R10, not a full-frame M camera. My guess is that Leica has been working on full-frame M prototypes for a long time now, but they're not "ready for prime-time".

[marknorton]

Back from the theatre, lets just say we voted with our feet at the interval. LOL.

 

I think most people contemplating a Leica M8 will understand the basic trade off between pixel count and noise. More of one gives you more of the other. If we get a full frame Leica M, a balanced compromise is required - take advantage of the extra real-estate to increase the number of pixels for sure, but also give us lower noise. Once you've had a Nikon D3 for a few weeks, the level of noise at ISO 1250 and up in the M8 is simply unacceptable.

 

Going back to fitting a FF sensor, my guess is that the furthest forward exit pupil of any lens must be able to see every part of the sensor and the potential obstructions cleared accordingly. Keeping in mind the exit pupil may often be inside the lens mount, it may already be OK, I'm quite sure Leica have it set up on a CAD file!

 

BTW, thanks to Simon for adding the FF sensor to the picture of the back of the camera.

[Olsen]

Someone once said that the secret to a happy marriage was "lowered expectations", and I think the same should be said of Leica / Photokina bliss

 

There are lots of ways to make a full sensor M camera now, and, barring some technological breakthrough, most of them involve compromises I'm not so sure I care to make:

 

1) Live with purple fringing and light falloff with wide angle lenses

2) Reduced compatibility with existing lenses, New retrofocus wides required

3) Make the camera body larger, heavier and more expensive

 

In many ways, #3 would be my least favorite option: An added millimeter here and a millimeter there, and before know it, you've got middle-age bloat.

 

Personally, I'm expecting the big news from Photokina to be the R10, not a full-frame M camera. My guess is that Leica has been working on full-frame M prototypes for a long time now, but they're not "ready for prime-time".

 

Well put!

 

 

I think I understand the two first - except for that the light fall if will be 'rediculous' in #1. Please explain #3.

[marknorton]

Mark, is the first picture in post 67 flipped L-R? The glass on top (my point of reference) looks more like the viewfinder front than the eyepiece.

The battery is position towards the lens (look at bottom of M8 with plate removed). They may be able to accommodate FF by tapering the 'throat' - may exclude use on a viso w/o vignetting since lenses would have to have exit pupils near the camera lens mount.

Tom

 

Tom, no the image is correct, it's looking at the back of the front casting making up the camera.

[mjh]

Second point is that Canon, Nikon, Sony all use CMOS sensors which are inherently lower noise than CMOS. Since Leica seems to be wedded to CCD technology they will always be paying a price in the noise realm.

It’s the other way round, as CMOS sensors are inherently more noisy. On the other hand, manufacturers such as Canon, Sony, and most recently Samsung have developed ways to effectively reduce this noise, so current CMOS sensors fare quite well with regard to noise. Still, without these noise-reducing measures, a CMOS sensor is terribly noisy compared to a CCD.

[4season]

Well put!

I think I understand the two first - except for that the light fall if will be 'rediculous' in #1. Please explain #3.

 

Where's the battery going to go? It probably can't remain where it is because it intrudes upon the 24x36mm frame. Obvious options are to downsize it or find somewhere else (probably outboard).

[ken_tanaka]

Who is a good experienced photographer? What is this opinion worth really?

 

What counts for me is that I need it for my purposes, whether I am considered a good photographer or not. I do not even give a sh... on that!

 

I just need and want FF - and I absolutely do no longer care what others think - Period. They can tell their thoughts, of course, but if Leica does not listen to the FF proponents, then they will see themselves where this goes.

 

And I am soooo tired of all experienced and whatever photographers who say or write something - it simply does not necessarily reflect what I need.

 

Why, exactly, do you feel you so desperately need a full-frame rangefinder camera? Can you display examples of your photography that illustrates the consequences of such a severe deficit?

[Guest stnami]

Where's the battery going to go?

......next to your pacemaker:p

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mhoersch]

Whatever they do - I do hope this time they will finish the thing before throwing it on the market!