Jamie Roberts Posted February 1, 2008 Share #41 Posted February 1, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) {snipped} I for one however can understand the frustration from some that Leica is "milking the cow" from a loyal customer base. Oh you want a QUIET shutter for unobtrusive photography!...well here it is $$$$$ I can't understand the frustration at all, actually. What Leica is offering you is a QUIETER shutter if you need one. If you don't, then don't upgrade. No-one is milking anything. Again, the number one key question you should ask yourself: if Leica announced the M8.2 available in August for $6K, with a sapphire cover and the quieter shutter, would you (in general--not you Andy) be whinging and complaining about their nasty marketing tactics!? Geeze guys, go have a beer or three! Then look at your M8 and consider that someday--after you've used it as the great camera it is right now, you may be able to unscrew the IR filters forever or use your 28 Cron as a 28 Cron--all without having to buy another body and probably for considerably less cost! What in the name of anything could be wrong with that? I'm really trying to understand how anyone could reasonably feel "betrayed" by this strategy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Jamie Roberts, Take a look here Important Clarification Needed On "Perpetual" Upgrade. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
barjohn Posted February 2, 2008 Share #42 Posted February 2, 2008 Jamie, It's because we don't really know what the strategy is. Since they are placing a time limit on the upgrade; what if it turns out that to get the next upgrade (you know the one we all really want with the new sensor) you had to have the prior one only it is no longer available? See why we might feel a little anxiety? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie_O Posted February 2, 2008 Share #43 Posted February 2, 2008 What time limit? I missed that part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 2, 2008 Share #44 Posted February 2, 2008 Jamie, It's because we don't really know what the strategy is. Since they are placing a time limit on the upgrade; what if it turns out that to get the next upgrade (you know the one we all really want with the new sensor) you had to have the prior one only it is no longer available? See why we might feel a little anxiety? Ahh now that perspective I understand, John--that makes perfect sense. Look--I haven't heard anything about an absolute time limit yet; only a limit on any run of upgrade coupons. I'm sure Leica has to do these things in groups of upgrades, and not run concurrent ones forever. Having said that, I'm pretty sure the implication is that if this is really an upgrade path Leica will need to make it clear how one goes from one 'state' to another. If--and this to me is a big if--that means you must take advantage of a limited-time upgrade to get the next one, well then I agree that's horrible. But I haven't heard anything like that at all; just that for the initial upgrade certificates are how they will manage the first upgrade run. IOW, if you miss the first one (because of demand, say), I think you may need to wait longer to get it later. But this is all speculation: we need Leica to explain their roadmap. Until then, I'd be optimistic. If they ever come out with the "you need to upgrade now or your screwed for further upgrades scenario" then I'll be yelling loudly alongside everyone else... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 2, 2008 Share #45 Posted February 2, 2008 What time limit? I missed that part. Maggie--they never said there was a time limit; only an initial upgrade certificate limit in the press release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 2, 2008 Share #46 Posted February 2, 2008 You know I don't buy the design flaw theory for a second to be honest. Agree. As I recall, there were three or maybe four tears or chunks mentioned on the forum; Leica charged for one ('customer damage,' they said), and the others were fixed under warranty. Besides, if it were an inherent design flaw, wouldn't Copal pick up the cost, just as Sony did when their laptop batteries started catching fire? Maggie--they never said there was a time limit; only an initial upgrade certificate limit in the press release. And they tied that into a request to 'reserve your place now,' possibly in order to gain operating capital quickly. The idea is genial (in both senses). It's brilliant because it may get Leica some quick cash to cover for the outlay they've had in M8 warranty issues. It's brilliant because we're spending all our time discussing whether it's a bargain instead of complaining over lack of new product at PMA. Pretty good accomplishment, that! It's a user-friendly idea because it tells us that our cameras are about to be out-of-date and lets us upgrade if we wish. Has a manufacturer ever smoothed the transition to a new model by publicly announcing changes six months in advance? The only miscalculation on Leica's side is that we are the only people who seem to care. My guess is that they, like us, expected to get some press out of an upgrade program, but the idea doesn't seem to have generated any interest except on this forum. To me it sounds like a great innovation for Leica and for us. Could the thundering quiet from other quarters be telling us otherwise? Or are the photo media and manufacturers so dumbstruck by the program's originality that they don't know how to respond? --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2008 Share #47 Posted February 2, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think the possible reason for paying upfront has more to do with getting a place in line and controlling the least time spent in Solms . Reason why is they can only do maybe 250 per month . If 1000 came in at the same time than your looking at 4 months sitting in a Solms basement floor. This way they come on a first come first serve basis and they order the first 250 to come right away than the next batch and so on. This way it keeps them in the work plan of 4 weeks. Think about this if they did not do it this way and your M8 was there 3 months than all hell would break loose. Besides making the money commitment guarantees them they will have it all planned out per request time . So for example there cutoff is 300 for the first month than number 301 that pays gets scheduled for the second month. Catching on folks this is a control factor not a money factor. Frankly Leica does not need your money in advance to finance the program , they have plenty of money. That is not what the purpose is, it is to control timing and work load to get it done on time without delays. This is exactly how you control production timing with replacements Repairs is different 1000 pieces show up and there is no schedule and it runs overdue. There is no control in repair but with replacement they can schedule the production and control the amount. Pretty darn smart if you ask me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdi Posted February 2, 2008 Share #48 Posted February 2, 2008 I think the possible reason for paying upfront has more to do with getting a place in line and controlling the least time spent in Solms . Reason why is they can only do maybe 250 per month . If 1000 came in at the same time than your looking at 4 months sitting in a Solms basement floor. This way they come on a first come first serve basis and they order the first 250 to come right away than the next batch and so on. This way it keeps them in the work plan of 4 weeks. Think about this if they did not do it this way and your M8 was there 3 months than all hell would break loose. Besides making the money commitment guarantees them they will have it all planned out per request time . So for example there cutoff is 300 for the first month than number 301 that pays gets scheduled for the second month. Catching on folks this is a control factor not a money factor. Frankly Leica does not need your money in advance to finance the program , they have plenty of money. That is not what the purpose is, it is to control timing and work load to get it done on time without delays. This is exactly how you control production timing with replacements Repairs is different 1000 pieces show up and there is no schedule and it runs overdue. There is no control in repair but with replacement they can schedule the production and control the amount. Pretty darn smart if you ask me I think may be a money issue if they think they'll be upgrading 1000 /month @ $1800 each! That's a nice sideline business for a small concern... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2008 Share #49 Posted February 2, 2008 Well there going to make money no doubt but folks are saying they need the money , they don't NEED the money for the upgrades to get started , that is not the intent. It is to commit to a schedule that they can control. Folks are making this out as a plot and that is simply not the case at all. It is all about controlling production and scheduling. The end result is money for leica but folks forget there backing of ownership is very large now. There not in any financial trouble. The M8 is a HUGE success for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinL Posted February 2, 2008 Share #50 Posted February 2, 2008 I think the possible reason for paying upfront has more to do with getting a place in line and controlling the least time spent in Solms . . .Pretty darn smart if you ask me Smart and perfectly acceptable. OTOH, Leica Marketing should understand that customer uncertainty rather than Leica's own best intentions is what will drive people over the edge (present posters excepted:) ) My solution: Reputable online vendors accept credit card purchases but do not charge the accounts until just before the product is shipped--especially if the item is not "in stock." Leica could act similarly. Customers "purchase" the upgrade with credit card the minute the program is in place (March '08?) or, whenever they decide. When Leica is within 2 or X weeks of being ready to work on one's M8, they notify by email and customer confirms. Leica charges the card, (ideally, sends customer a shipping box/kit--if anyone has ever had repairs on a notebook computer, you know what I'm talking about) and customer ships to Solms (or wherever). Because the capacity for upgrades is high and tightly managed, Leica should be able to inform to the customer that "cameras received at Solms (or wherever) by xx/xx/2008 will be upgraded and return-shipped by xx/xx/200x. 3-5 weeks (or more?) without one's nicely operating camera can be tolerable if he has some measure of control by being able to plan for his camera needs and his money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 2, 2008 Share #51 Posted February 2, 2008 I think the possible reason for paying upfront has more to do with getting a place in line and controlling the least time spent in Solms ...This is exactly how you control production timing with replacements Repairs is different 1000 pieces show up and there is no schedule and it runs overdue. There is no control in repair but with replacement they can schedule the production and control the amount. Pretty darn smart if you ask me Guy, I disagree with you. There are many ways to handle this besides the scenario you outlined. For example you could have units ready to go, a customer sends in his camera, you swap hot shoes and it goes into the refurbish bin where your team is busy refurbishing the bodies as they come in. As they have a refurbished ready it goes on the shelf to be used as a replacement for the next one and so on. I am assuming a full CLA is designed to make the camera look like new, replacing worn coverings, scratched or worn metal, etc. This makes turn around much faster and you can even use a few new bodies when need be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie_O Posted February 2, 2008 Share #52 Posted February 2, 2008 For example you could have units ready to go, a customer sends in his camera, you swap hot shoes and it goes into the refurbish bin where your team is busy refurbishing the bodies as they come in. As they have a refurbished ready it goes on the shelf to be used as a replacement for the next one and so on. I am assuming a full CLA is designed to make the camera look like new, replacing worn coverings, scratched or worn metal, etc. This makes turn around much faster and you can even use a few new bodies when need be. Man, that's even more of a "Grandpa's Axe"* scenario than I imagined the other day! *"This is my grandpa's axe. Sure, dad replaced the handle when he got it and I replaced the head a few years back, but it's still my grandpa's axe." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2008 Share #53 Posted February 2, 2008 John not sure how many folks are truly on the bench and if a 1000 show up than there in trouble with back log. I don't know the facts and it is what I think that is logical set up and I certainly can be wrong but it does make some sense to it. Maybe it's a question I need to ask. But I am not sure folks want there camera swapped with someone else's camera . Maybe a legal issue there , not sure. Now I agree with Martin too they could do the charging differently. i will ask about that for sure on when you get nailed on your CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 2, 2008 Share #54 Posted February 2, 2008 They do that now when they send you a replacement, they just don't swap the serial numbers. Many here have complained about the practice of getting a refurb when they thought they should get a new unit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 2, 2008 Share #55 Posted February 2, 2008 Well there going to make money no doubt but folks are saying they need the money , they don't NEED the money for the upgrades to get started , that is not the intent. It is to commit to a schedule that they can control. No problem with your analysis, Guy, but I don't believe I've said that Leica needs money. Since your post immediately follows mine on the topic http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/44728-important-clarification-needed-perpetual-upgrade-3.html#post471765, I want to point out that Jamie and I have conjectured elsewhere that this is extra cash availability for them at a time when: 1) they have done free upgrades on the initial M8s; 2) they have finally shipped the last of the "remedy lenses" (aka "30% off lenses"); 3) they have announced a major upgrade for the M8, requiring new components; 4) they have announced the possibility of a second major M8 upgrade for photokina; and 5) they are expected to have a major new R release also at photokina. Your explanation is exactly what Leica would say, isn't it? "We need to control the influx of these cameras so we don't get into the problems we had at their introduction." Fine. But having cash on hand earning interest while watching the dollar deteriorate and preparing for these introductions isn't going to be a bad thing for them. I said above that our getting a place in line is "possibly in order to gain operating capital quickly." That doesn't mean they're out of money, and in my opinion it's a brilliant move from their side, as I went on to say in that same post. Pretty darn smart if you ask me Agreed, and I've said that maybe half a dozen times here as well. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 2, 2008 Share #56 Posted February 2, 2008 Let's get off all this discussion "is it good? Is it bad? Is it fair?" BOR-ing. Let's get back to something useful., such as: The next upgrade is apparently to be to CCD Full Frame. Full Frame is great. CCD is very interesting. Will it be from Kodak? From Sony? Please, cut the griping. If you haven't already, please read the first post in "This Forum Needs a Psychiatrist" http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/44813-forum-need-s-psychiatrist.html. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 2, 2008 Share #57 Posted February 2, 2008 Let's get off all this discussion "is it good? Is it bad? Is it fair?" I think that misses the point; the upgrade is neither good nor bad nor fair on its own. The issue is that without an understanding of the Leica's roadmap for upgrades, or a clear assurance as to how that road map works (e.g., not doing an upgrade now will never lock you out of a future upgrade, etc, etc), you can't actually take a rational decision now. You either have to just follow the complete Leica upgade path, and risk spending more that you need to on upgrades that don't make any difference to you, or risk not being able to do later upgrades and/or reduced resale values. Either way, you're taking a risk. And while Leica maybe maximizing their revenue by doing this, in my view they are also guaranteeing that at some point in the future there will be a sizable group of users that will believe they were betrayed. Just look at the various threads on this site: people are assuming better sensors/FF/perpetual upgrades, etc, etc - whatever their pet feature is. Some of those are simply not going to happen, and others are hints that might or might not come to anything. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 2, 2008 Share #58 Posted February 2, 2008 A roadmap won't matter (I'm afraid) because the direction is moving forward. Those who choose to "upgrade" will always be left behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 2, 2008 Share #59 Posted February 2, 2008 Good points, Sandy. We don't have the guidance we need, but that doesn't stop the sometimes crazy speculation you speak of. Some are going to be disappointed because they didn't get some specific feature that you and I perhaps know can't be offered. But others are going to be elated because of what Leica did instead. Leica has said they are investigating the possibility of future upgrades, but without knowing what technology will be available in three years, there's no way they can present a roadmap. If they presented one, some users would complain later that Leica hadn't followed it to the letter. There's no right or wrong in this situation. It's like everything else--I might meet the girl of my dreams if I take that cruise, or I might meet her if I don't. Or I might just stand here and rend my garments for uncertainty. I think we know the company well enough to know that we won't be locked out of the upgrade path by skipping one or another of the stages (though I know some nay-sayers will voice the opposite--it's easy enough to do ). Lee is quoted as saying "we will do what's right." On another front--any speculation on a source for the mooted full-frame sensor? --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted February 2, 2008 Share #60 Posted February 2, 2008 If that's the case, then I think many of us will wait for upgrade 2... But they do need to clarify this, because they language they use "perpetual," "program," etc. does make it sound like your $1800 spent now, with the extended warranty, would get you further upgrades within that two-year warranty window... Come on, how should these work ? Just pay once 1800,- USD and than get each upgrade for free.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.