johnbuckley Posted January 31, 2008 Share #1 Posted January 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Having read and reread the press release, the website, the various threads: if you spend $1800 for the "perpetual" upgrade, is the program perpetual, or a one-shot deal? It's a serious question: I can't parse what they've written and find a clear answer: if we early adopters, some of us with not one, but two M8s, go for the offer in March, will we be able to, at the point in the future when there is the next upgrade, be able to send it the camera in again? Or will we have to shell out more money, again? If the "perpetual" upgrade is that -- an $1800 insurance policy that, from now on, Leica will make sure your M8 stays current with the fresh ones sold new in stores -- I would be inclined to go for it. If we are paying $1800 for just this upgrade -- nuclear silo-hardened LCD, shutter change, etc. -- that is not so good a deal. Any smart folks with stronger reading comprehension skills have a firm answer? Cheers, JB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 31, 2008 Posted January 31, 2008 Hi johnbuckley, Take a look here Important Clarification Needed On "Perpetual" Upgrade. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
carstenw Posted January 31, 2008 Share #2 Posted January 31, 2008 There is almost no likelihood that Leica is gambling on the future like that. They have no way to know what needs changing next, and how much it will cost. It will be just for this upgrade. If the sound level was never a big deal for you, it is not a good deal. To me, I am strongly considering the upgrade, especially since my warranty runs out in November. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 31, 2008 Share #3 Posted January 31, 2008 It's a great question and did come up on my forum also. i will see what answers i get but Carsten has it right in my mind also . It's a one shot deal money and upgrade wise but a continuation of future upgrades to come but at a cost per each one. So upgrade 2 package maybe 1500 for whatever Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share #4 Posted January 31, 2008 If that's the case, then I think many of us will wait for upgrade 2... But they do need to clarify this, because they language they use "perpetual," "program," etc. does make it sound like your $1800 spent now, with the extended warranty, would get you further upgrades within that two-year warranty window... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C. Posted January 31, 2008 Share #5 Posted January 31, 2008 does make it sound like your $1800 spent now, with the extended warranty, would get you further upgrades within that two-year warranty window... The language may well be cloudy, but the intent is undoubtedly clear: this is the first available upgrade, at a cost of €1200.00. Future upgrades will definitely not be free! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethC Posted January 31, 2008 Share #6 Posted January 31, 2008 Then if it is $1800 for this upgrade but you choose not to have it done, can you go for upgrade 2 without doing upgrade 1 or will that be reliant on upgrade 1? In certain respects it's a concern as many may not feel that $1800 is not good value for money for this upgrade but it is for the next one whatever that is. For example, if Leica says you can have a FF upgrade I owuld almost certainly be all over that but if that is upgrade 4 and I need to get the other 3 done first then for $5400 or whatever I would seriously question the value of me doing that rather than just buying a new camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted January 31, 2008 Share #7 Posted January 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) No one has said that all upgrades will be the same price. The way I read and understand "perpetual" is that the camera will be able to be upgraded over and over again, as upgrades become available. I have said this before - eventually, the only original part left will be the serial number. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 31, 2008 Share #8 Posted January 31, 2008 I think the $1800 is for this upgrade only, I certainly don't think it's a one time or even annual fee to keep your camera current. If they come up with more upgrade packages, I would expect them to be priced differently as Andy suggests but I'd also expect that having more than one done at a time would be cheaper because of the pooling of costs. So, to speculate, if this was the menu: 1. New Shutter and LCD Cover: $1800 2. New Frame Lines and Shutter Release: $600 3. New Cropped Sensor and Electronics: $2800 4. New Full Frame Sensor and Electronics: $5500 There might be some pre-requisites and co-requisites. If you want the Full Frame sensor, you must have the new shutter unless you already have it and you need the new frame lines to match the changed field of view. From an engineering point of view, it's a straight-jacket. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 31, 2008 Share #9 Posted January 31, 2008 Exactly my thoughts Andy. This opens up some real possibilities. Empty shell fill it up with what you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted January 31, 2008 Share #10 Posted January 31, 2008 I think the $1800 is for this upgrade only, I certainly don't think it's a one time or even annual fee to keep your camera current. If they come up with more upgrade packages, I would expect them to be priced differently as Andy suggests but I'd also expect that having more than one done at a time would be cheaper because of the pooling of costs. So, to speculate, if this was the menu: 1. New Shutter and LCD Cover: $1800 2. New Frame Lines and Shutter Release: $600 3. New Cropped Sensor and Electronics: $2800 4. New Full Frame Sensor and Electronics: $5500 There might be some pre-requisites and co-requisites. If you want the Full Frame sensor, you must have the new shutter unless you already have it and you need the new frame lines to match the changed field of view. From an engineering point of view, it's a straight-jacket. Mark you just took a page out of my book on exactly these kinds of questions i have . Can i bundle at upgrade 3 and pick 2 to go with it and such and what needs to be in there first or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordfanjpn Posted January 31, 2008 Share #11 Posted January 31, 2008 So, to speculate, if this was the menu: 1. New Shutter and LCD Cover: $1800 2. New Frame Lines and Shutter Release: $600 3. New Cropped Sensor and Electronics: $2800 4. New Full Frame Sensor and Electronics: $5500 This is exactly what has me worried. Let's say you need the new shutter and frame lines to get the FF sensor. Using Mark's numbers, that'll be a $7900 upgrade to a $5000 camera. So while the concept of a perpetually upgradable camera is a nice idea, it really doesn't make any economic sense, at least not at the prices Leica wants to charge for the upgrades. It would be cheaper just to buy another camera. Unless they start selling the new ones for $12,000. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. It might give them ideas. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footnoteblog Posted February 1, 2008 Share #12 Posted February 1, 2008 Stop throwing the $1800 number around, people! Get it in everyone's heads it should be half that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwfreund Posted February 1, 2008 Share #13 Posted February 1, 2008 lets see, What does a D300 go for? oh, and by the way, its shutter may already be quieter than the M8s (If the D200 can be used as a model). So it doesn't have sapphire glass on the lcd, what does a screen patronus cost? I love my (two) M8s, but even that has a price limit associated with it. Unless there are serious IQ advantages, then there is no reason to spend the premium. Yes, I would pay for more IQ, but I don't shoot many frames between 1/30 and 2 sec where I expect that the vibration reduction might have the most benefit. My analysis of the PMA announcement set was that it might have been better if Leica were a no-show and if it left its web site alone. If they were public, I would be attending their next share holder's meeting. That flash looks expensive. I wonder if it is more or less than the firmware development cost on fixing the AWB? If they matched the camera with the new web site, then they might be better to join forces with a specialty jeweler and camera leather. Good job for the AWB, firmware engineers, but why did it take you so long? Bad on you, marketing department. go fire yourselves for the upgrade program, the web site, its music, and the non-announcements at PMA. They should have taken the money and tripled the size of the M8 firmware department. -bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 1, 2008 Share #14 Posted February 1, 2008 1200 Euro's so whatever the conversion will be at the time you make the upgrade purchase Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethC Posted February 1, 2008 Share #15 Posted February 1, 2008 I started off wanting to quote Andy, then Mark, then Guy, then jack then I thought screw mount this as it were. I think I may have expressed myself poorly because you're all dancing around my point. Forget $1800, I took that number because it is the only one quoted so far for upgrade 1, not knowing what upgrades 2 and 3 etc will cost. The question to ask is, "If I want upgrade 3 do I have to buy upgrade 1 and 2 to get there?" Ideally no, because then you have a fully customizable M8 but I think not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 1, 2008 Share #16 Posted February 1, 2008 Mark reads the message as I do. But what I think is strange is the wording that "With the ... perpetual upgrade program, every LEICA M8 will forever be a state-of-the-art digital camera." I doubt that they can stick with that, and FAQ #6 implies as much: "We are presently investigating the possibility of further upgrade steps...." In other words, at some point it is possible that the state-of-the-art may advance beyond the upgradability of the M8. In addition, FAQ #6 offers a limit to the claim that the M8 will be forever a state-of-the-art device, when it says "... you can always bring your camera up to date." That could be seen as saying We guarantee that the M8 can always be brought up to date with the then-current production of M8's, although at some time the M8 may be superseded by a later model to whose capabilities the M8 cannot be upgraded. In other words, it seems to me that the FAQ says that Leica can upgrade the M8 this time and they are looking at the possibility of future upgrades (no guarantee), one or more of which will likely be possible. Am I being pedantic? Seems to me marketing and production are still trying to get on the same page. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 1, 2008 Share #17 Posted February 1, 2008 The question to ask is, "If I want upgrade 3 do I have to buy upgrade 1 and 2 to get there?" Ideally no, because then you have a fully customizable M8 but I think not. Gareth, I think that's what Mark answered above. We all wonder the same thing as you, but since upgrade #3 hasn't been announced, we can't say. If upgrade #2 is a change to the framelines, then it isn't likely that you would need upgrade #1 to get #2. If upgrade #3 is a move to 24x36, then it may or may not be necessary to have upgrade #1. That is, upgrade #1 changes out the shutter; if the new shutter can cover a 24x36 frame (and if the current one can't, but see below), then it may be a prerequisite for upgrade #3. However, if the shutter of upgrade #1 doesn't cover a 24x36 frame, then upgrade #3 would require the removal of whatever shutter is present and its replacement with a 24x36 shutter. I believe that Mark's disassembly of the M8 indicated that the current shutter is able to cover 24x36 mm. It that's so, then in this scenario it might be possible to get upgrade #3 whether or not you had had upgrade #1 or upgrade #2. But the point is that at any point you could opt out of the cycle of upgrading (like exiting samsara ) and use the camera 'as-is.' And at any point, you could switch to another brand. Look at this as a way of saying, "Hey, we've got an M8-2. You can get one by spending $6000, or we can convert your current camera for a third of that amount. And we'll try to do the same in future, but we have to look at it as it comes." It's both a marketing tool and a concept of continuing upgradability. This M8-2 isn't different enough to be called an M9, but it's different enough that some M8 owners would have asked, "Why didn't you give me this before? I just spent $5000 and if I had waited, I'd have been able to get what I wanted for only 20% more." --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 1, 2008 Share #18 Posted February 1, 2008 I started off wanting to quote Andy, then Mark, then Guy, then jack then I thought screw mount this as it were. I think I may have expressed myself poorly because you're all dancing around my point. Forget $1800, I took that number because it is the only one quoted so far for upgrade 1, not knowing what upgrades 2 and 3 etc will cost. The question to ask is, "If I want upgrade 3 do I have to buy upgrade 1 and 2 to get there?" Ideally no, because then you have a fully customizable M8 but I think not. Gareth that is the 64 k question and one of the first to ask Leica. Example in upgrade 2 for instance let's say there is a full frame sensor upgrade , the question is do i need the shutter upgrade from upgrade 1 to do that or can i pass on the shutter and go right to the sensor. I'm all over it like a cheap suit. Let's see what kind of answer comes about. I know exactly what your asking and I asked myself the same thing Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 1, 2008 Share #19 Posted February 1, 2008 This is exactly what has me worried. Let's say you need the new shutter and frame lines to get the FF sensor. Using Mark's numbers, that'll be a $7900 upgrade to a $5000 camera. So while the concept of a perpetually upgradable camera is a nice idea, it really doesn't make any economic sense, at least not at the prices Leica wants to charge for the upgrades. It would be cheaper just to buy another camera. Unless they start selling the new ones for $12,000. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. It might give them ideas. This won't be the case as you have stated it. We need to break down the theoretical €1200 into components. A full CLA costs around €400 perhaps, and includes partial disassembly and reassembly, as well as a new warranty. The LCD cover will not cost much, no more than €150 including installation, probably less. The firmware update will cost maybe €50 at Leica labour prices. That leaves the shutter, costing €600. If you then also want framelines, well the camera is already apart, so perhaps add €200. If you then want the FF sensor, subtract the CLA cost from the sensor price and add the rest to this price. By the way, when you are done, you don't have a €10.000 M8 or whatever. You have a new model. This is not like changing the covering, this is a deep factory change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted February 1, 2008 Share #20 Posted February 1, 2008 Perpetual surely means that this is the first of more to come. Future upgrades will have additional cost. Having been in the business of selling and marketing High Tech products for the printing Industry for over 20 years and selling "upgrades" that cost hundreds of thousands of Euro's this attempt by Leica is laughable. An upgrade path is one that adds significant functionality to a base product and is chargeable. This proposed upgrade is what we would call an FCO (Field change order), this corrects design or functional errors in the base product and is normally included in warranty. A non scratch screen, a shutter that sounds different and firmaware which is anyway available is an attempt to generate cash early before the next model arrives. Mr.Lee and his marketing manager are probably toasting this strike of genius as we speak. What is even worse is that some users will actually hand over the money thus, confirming the genius...the story continues. andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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