Important Clarification Needed On "Perpetual" Upgrade

[Ecaton]

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I wished I had some of your optimism in this one. The whole move shows the handwriting of financial management. Substituting lower M8 sales revenue and trying to generate some operating cash flow more than likely (co-) inspired the way the upgrading is being offered.

 

However, considering the remaining warranty terms for the M8s in the market, there was (or is?) a considerable risk that customers would wait with upgrading until the existing warranty was close to expire ( to max warranty protection time ). A new shutter and screen is obviously not time critical to get for most customers. Now this is were the "limited programm" idea comes in! The limited edition approach is not a new one in Solms, think of all of the M6 ones. It helps creating demand, and in the upgrading program case even aims at timing of it. Eventually missing 2008 sales revenue and operating cash flow need to be substituted.

[mhoersch]

The language may well be cloudy, but the intent is undoubtedly clear...

 

In my experience clouded language is seldom used to express clear ideas. Only two likely exceptions come to mind:

1. Incompetence, but that seems improbable, because it's hard to imagine clear thinking without command of clear language.

2. Deliberate attempt at hiding real motives behind cloudy language.

 

Now, nobody can be sure about what it is in this case except the people at Leica. But I must say I do wonder why it is that what we mostly do in this forum is try to figure out what on earth Leica thinks, intends, means...

 

This proves at least one thing to me, and that is that whatever Leica is up to in any particular field they are absolute masters in keeping their customers in the dark about it!

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[sandymc]

By the way, when you are done, you don't have a €10.000 M8 or whatever.

 

Carsten, yes, but you may have then an M8-x that you cost cost you €10.000, and sells new for €5.000. Leica, and anyone buying an M8, are traveling down a road that is very finely balanced between "great idea" and financial lunacy. And the danger is that great idea for Leica maybe financial lunacy for its customers. There's just no way to tell without knowing what the totality of this path will be over 5 or 10 years.

 

Sandy

[mhoersch]

Just an afterthought:

 

If reduction of the noise was the central idea behind this proposed update, wouldn't it have been a great idea to shows graphs of the decrease of the noise level in db? What does Leica do? They show graphs that demonstrate a decrease in vibration.

 

Now, before the announcement of this update I don't remember having read any negative comments about vibrations, but I do remember lots of complaints about noise.

 

The mp3-files suggest a mild difference in noise but certainly nothing worth 1.200 Euros, much less anything like the elegant and barely audible sound of an analog M.

 

So, I guess this update is really about replacing the shutter before too many of the old shutters will be torn to pieces - simply by taking pictures.

[Speenth]

So, I guess this update is really about replacing the shutter before too many of the old shutters will be torn to pieces - simply by taking pictures.

 

...... so better to avoid this crass attempt to persuade existing customers to make financial loans to Leica in the period to August and instead to wait UNTIL the old shutter fails. I doubt that its replacement (be it with the original type, or with the new "quieter" one will cost 1,200 Euros).

 

Leica may know (and aren't telling us) that the original M8 shutters are prone to failure. So they've cleverly hit on a great idea for making us pay handsomely for their mistake! Even better, we never get to find out for sure if the original shutters were crap. Crafty.

 

.... and may the failure problem is about vibration.

 

This is nasty marketing verging on a con-trick and we loyal customers are the potential suckers. I've always been happy to pay a premium for anything Leica (even the hilarious 25 Euros for a plastic lens cap probably sourced from Hama). In return I expect a very personal experience and assured quality, but increasingly we get tacky low-rent Frankenchargers, lens hoods for Summarits that are expensive on-cost 'options' and a hardware future-proofing programme that isn't future-proofing anything. Come on Leica, what do you take us for? Oh yes, I forgot - cash-cows.

 

Its milking time folks.

[andybarton]

Come on Leica, what do you take us for? Oh yes, I forgot - cash-cows.

 

Its milking time folks.

 

Read my lips...

 

"Y o u -- d o n ' t -- h a v e -- t o -- d o -- t h e -- u p g r a d e"

 

[Speenth]

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Read my lips...

 

"Y o u -- d o n ' t -- h a v e -- t o -- d o -- t h e -- u p g r a d e"

 

 

The fact that I have a choice does not change one iota, my contention that this is a disrespectful con perpetrated on Leica's own fan-base.

 

The package is unimpressive and expensive. It is dressed up as something it is not. If I 'invested' in this 'upgrade' my M8 would still have all its inbuilt problems and there is absolutely no tangible increase in imaging performance.

 

Why has Leica done this now, just weeks before Photokina? Why not at Photokina? Why not wait until there are some really useful hardware upgrades and fixes for present failings and then release a package (maybe at twice the price) that brings real and tangible benefits?

 

You are absolutely right that we have a choice and my posts are intended to reinforce that.

 

Don't bite on this one! Wait a while and the only loser will be the sharks in the Leica boardroom.

 

Yours, from an uncharacteristically peeved Steve'

[Ecaton]

Read my lips...

 

"Y o u -- d o n ' t -- h a v e -- t o -- d o -- t h e -- u p g r a d e"

 

 

 

Fully agree. But whilst we care about the Leica products and their future, Solms' boardroom short term focus seems to be on their balance sheet and cash flow. In an ideal world the two would be aligned, customers happy and the manufacturer prosper. My ranting in recent posts stems from concerns that the latter one is far from being granted!

[FMB]

For the moment they have survived and keep moving fast. Who, nowadays, has granted what?

 

Francisco.

[stevelap]

Read my lips...

 

"Y o u -- d o n ' t -- h a v e -- t o -- d o -- t h e -- u p g r a d e"

 

Couldn't agree more Andy. It baffles me that some forum members either can't grasp or choose to ignore that simple concept.

 

Leica is a business not a charity, it must make a profit and keep moving forward to survive. Its products and services have always been expensive and people either choose to accept that or not. Accept the price and buy a camera, or don't. Accept the price and upgrade, or don't. Choices, life is full of them.

 

Many of the details concerning how the upgrade scheme will operate have yet to be released, will it follow a linear prerequisite path or a modular one for example, but at least Leica are trying to offer their customers a way to circumvent the planned obsolescence so prevalent in this digital age.

 

Steve

[andym911]

Couldn't agree more Andy. It baffles me that some forum members either can't grasp or choose to ignore that simple concept.

 

Leica is a business not a charity, it must make a profit and keep moving forward to survive. Its products and services have always been expensive and people either choose to accept that or not. Accept the price and buy a camera, or don't. Accept the price and upgrade, or don't. Choices, life is full of them.

 

Many of the details concerning how the upgrade scheme will operate have yet to be released, will it follow a linear prerequisite path or a modular one for example, but at least Leica are trying to offer their customers a way to circumvent the planned obsolescence so prevalent in this digital age.

 

Steve

 

I dont think anyone is questioning the rationale behing offering an upgrade path for a digital device like the M8.

What I and some others are questioning is the value vs cost of this first one..

 

...hardly significant functionality improvement from what is available on info at the moment...and definitely not cutting edge stuff:)

 

But..each to their own..and as you mention you don't have to do it....I for one however can understand the frustration from some that Leica is "milking the cow" from a loyal customer base.

Oh you want a QUIET shutter for unobtrusive photography!...well here it is $$$$$

[andym911]

A MINT M6 costs less than Euro 1200.....Quiet shutter included;)

[stevelap]

That's fair enough Andy, but this is only the first upgrade after all. Hopefully there will be bigger and better ones to come (but at what price I hear you ask:) ) and hopefully you will still have a choice then.

 

That will be determined by the prerequisites path chosen by Leica I suppose. It's possible that the only choice will be whether to start down the upgrade path or not, if every upgrade becomes a prerequisite for the next one:(.

 

Steve

[ho_co]

Why has Leica done this now, just weeks before Photokina? Why not at Photokina?

photokina starts Sept 23, so we're 7 months away. More than 'just weeks.'

 

More importantly, I think the R10 is supposed to be the star at photokina. They needed to do something big for PMA and figured this would be it.

 

In addition, the implication is that a new model M8 will start shipping in August. They're telling us now so we won't be miffed at that time that our cameras are out of date.

 

 

I'd like to know more about the shutter. As others have asked, do the current shutters have design flaws? If so, shouldn't Copal cover future torn and flaking blades, allowing Leica to replace them at minimal charge when problems arise?

 

--HC

[Guest guy_mancuso]

You know I don't buy the design flaw theory for a second to be honest. Yes a couple went South but many shutters in other brands have done so also. Let's face it I have put more than 20 k on these bodies and i am hard on gear . I don't take any precautions like turning the camera off when changing lenses or any of that stuff. if anyones shutter that should burst i am a perfect target. i have had SDS twice on the same camera, battery restarts. But my shutters work a charm

[Kent10D]

Guy, I think you make a valid and important point.

 

The majority of heavy (and heavy-handed) M8 users haven't experienced shutter failures. In fact it seems that the actual number of failures is quite small. And as you say, it happens in other cameras as well. A small percentage of any mass-produced mechanical device will fail (and I do feel terrible for anyone who has had this problem). I think we can put the dodgy-shutter conspiracy theory to rest. There are many other good arguments regarding the pros and cons of the upgrade program, but I tend to agree that shutter conspiracy isn't one of them.

[GarethC]

Here's a thought, maybe Leica arre trying to build brand loyalty and maintain their customer base. of course it's financially motivated but as Andy put so eloquently "You don't have to do the upgrade".

 

If it becomes uneconomical to keep doing the upgrades in terms of resale value then you jsut won't sell it, thereby hooked into the Leica system.

 

Or put it another way, I bought my Canon 5D for $2200 I think it was, they are now selling for $1500, I still maintain it's a perfectly good camera, certainly not technologically obsolete but by the time you throw sales taxes on my original purchase, I've lost 40% if I were to sell it. Therefore, $1800 for the upgrade is not such a bad deal after all.

 

yes, yes, I know that there are holes in that argument but honestly, there are holes in every other argument (both for and against) that I've read so far.

 

Except Andy's that is......................

 

As I've said before, I like the idea of not dropping X thousands of bucks every couple of years chasing the rainbow, I'd love to be happy enough with this camera to hold onto it for a few years. If this Leica scheme/scam or whatever you want to call it means that I am still using my M8 in even 4 years then quite frankly, they've proven themselves to be spot in their marketing strategy.

[Goldie]

One thing is for sure, Leica knows how to wind-up people on this forum!

 

Really what the problem seems to be is that the upgrade offered is not the same as the upgrade dreamed of by the people on the forum, so people says it's expensive, because its not what they dreamed of. Perhaps some of these dreams can never become reality.

 

IMO the upgrade per se is not expensive; people are forgetting that to demolish a camera and then rebuild it, is far more costly than starting from scratch.

 

Whether we are actually charged well in advance of the work is still unclear. If this is the case, then I for one think it is sharp practice.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Guy, I think you make a valid and important point.

 

The majority of heavy (and heavy-handed) M8 users haven't experienced shutter failures. In fact it seems that the actual number of failures is quite small. And as you say, it happens in other cameras as well. A small percentage of any mass-produced mechanical device will fail (and I do feel terrible for anyone who has had this problem). I think we can put the dodgy-shutter conspiracy theory to rest. There are many other good arguments regarding the pros and cons of the upgrade program, but I tend to agree that shutter conspiracy isn't one of them.

 

At some point i do have to consider this because warranty will be over in November by than i maybe at 30 K plus. As a pro you simply can't go down so you have to think ahead . Like a car we may actually do a oil change before we need too. If you know what I am saying.

 

I know there has been a ton of back and forth on this and i am here riding the middle both as a user that puts Guy Mancuso Photography first with decision making, than I have workshops that are supported by Leica and i really do love the Leica folks and i try and support them as well. Than I ride the road as a Pro that is trying to help the community of Pros and hobbyists in helping them make good decisions. Than on top of all that I am a beta tester for Leica

 

When I sit here and juggle all the data , the concept is unique and a great idea form Leica, now you have to look at the upgrade and than the future upgrades and the idea of this and come to conclusions that make real sense to you the shooter. I can't say you guys should jump on it , not my place. But i will say try and put the pieces together and make informed decisions for yourself on worth and value. This upgrade may not be exactly what you want but there is more coming. For me this one a maybe . If it was a FF sensor, electronic frame lines and such . Than decision would be a yes for me. It improves my files in the end. I think the key here is for all of us to keep a open mind and think about it in the bigger picture sense( no pun intended). I here stuff like Leica is soaking us dry and such. Hell wake up everyone needs to make money let's face the facts. Do you really think when you by a car at 100 dollars above invoice that truly is the case, no freaking way . There is so much back end stuff going on in that deal your head would spin. I have friends that own BIG dealerships and you folks would be amazed at the profit side. I guess as i hit the road , I will leave you with don't stick a stick in your eye , think about it and think what may come next and really keep a open micd. this is not life or death stuff but it is important to you as a shooter. make a informed decision and not a knee jerk reaction. Even after over 30 years doing this I have to think long and hard before i buy something. And you guys know I am a nut case on gear but i truly think hard about a purchase. Apply it here

 

And don't beat each other up we all have to deal with the decision one way or another .

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Richard.no]

I'd say it is not a good deal.

 

Hey, how many of you guys (and ladies? is there...one?) have owned other M models, which you have sold a few years or clicks later?

 

How the h*ll are we going to know which model you're buying? It still says M8!

 

I don't care too much about the upgrade, it seems a lot for little (shutter sound, OK. Screen and clean? Forget it!). I fully respect that some users might want to pay for this. Hey, if it includes courier services and all that, maybe it's not too bad. But I am just not going to do it.

 

What company wants to sell upgrades and not new products? A company struggling to find money for R&D, struggling to keep up with the competition! They have to increase attractiveness as full frame, consumer style DSLR's are going to pop out like mushrooms in the months to come. Comparing apples and oranges, yes. Are we still talking photography? Yes.

 

This is only a good deal if the new, unmodified M8's on shelf today, drops considerably in price! Think about it. Any "old" model would have a price drop. The upgrade value/price might stay at a high level, but the "base", the M8 has to drop. Not now, but in time, as more "perpetual" upgrades arrive. You don't want to buy a Nikon D1H today at the original price - and then upgrade!

Adding up the numbers, all I can think of is that: either the M8+upgrade1 is the last M ever - or the M9 will come sooner than later.

 

 

Having read and reread the press release, the website, the various threads: if you spend $1800 for the "perpetual" upgrade, is the program perpetual, or a one-shot deal? It's a serious question: I can't parse what they've written and find a clear answer: if we early adopters, some of us with not one, but two M8s, go for the offer in March, will we be able to, at the point in the future when there is the next upgrade, be able to send it the camera in again? Or will we have to shell out more money, again?

 

If the "perpetual" upgrade is that -- an $1800 insurance policy that, from now on, Leica will make sure your M8 stays current with the fresh ones sold new in stores -- I would be inclined to go for it. If we are paying $1800 for just this upgrade -- nuclear silo-hardened LCD, shutter change, etc. -- that is not so good a deal.

 

Any smart folks with stronger reading comprehension skills have a firm answer? Cheers, JB