ho_co Posted February 2, 2008 Share #61 Posted February 2, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Having read and reread the press release, the website, the various threads: if you spend $1800 for the "perpetual" upgrade, is the program perpetual, or a one-shot deal? It's a serious question: I can't parse what they've written and find a clear answer: if we early adopters, some of us with not one, but two M8s, go for the offer in March, will we be able to, at the point in the future when there is the next upgrade, be able to send it the camera in again? Or will we have to shell out more money, again? John, when I read the announcements, I see no reference to a "perpetual upgrade," but to a "perpetual upgrade program." That is, as I see it, the program is ongoing. Paying €1200 gets you upgrade #1 with a 2-year warranty. When upgrade #2 comes along, possibly within that warranty period, it will certainly have its own cost and will not be free to people who had upgrade #1 done. Upgrade #2 may or may not be dependent on having upgrade #1. If the earlier upgrade is a prerequisite, you will certainly be able to purchase both at the same time if necessary. It might even be less expensive to get the two done at the same time, since the camera only needs to be disassembled once--but don't bet on it. Speculation at the moment is that the quieter shutter now offered as part of upgrade #1 will be required for the upgrade to full-frame sensor. Andy Piper has suggested that even if the fullframe M8 is announced at photokina, it may not begin shipping then. If that's the case, it might be reasonable to get the first upgrade and go on shooting while you wait for the announcement of the second. (Doing so would also let you purchase the beast in installments.) But each attempt to see into the future takes us further into speculation. Those are my speculations; Guy is probably the closest to the matter, and he has several times said he should have more information Saturday Feb 2. Let's hope so. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Hi ho_co, Take a look here Important Clarification Needed On "Perpetual" Upgrade. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted February 2, 2008 Share #62 Posted February 2, 2008 This upgrade startegy has already given them a first result : lot of users SPEAK OF IT, and surely I think they are evaluating with attention the moods; once more (as with the Summarits' move) I think Lee & co. are really a marketing-wise team : - They make an announcement that once more puts Leica in a unique position in the market. This, in general is surely one of their main strategic goals. - Such an annoucement is a risky bet, both in tech terms (future technologies on sensors...) and commercial terms (what will be customer reaction ?) - So they start with a finely tuned first offer : cosmetic change (screen cover), tech change (shutter), service (CLA & ext. warranty), they put out a first price tag, and a certain timing agenda : a savvy move to eveluate in concrete terms HOW this strategy is evaluated by users. - Depending on how many will make the upgrade, they consequently will tune the implementation of the strategy... they haven't taken official commitments on future (see the press release, whose content has been surely managed with care, about the "possibilty" and "evaluatins to be made" about the availabilty of FF sensor whithin the upgrade program) - If they collect many orders for this first upgrade, they probably decide to play hard the upgrade game in the future. - If it's unsuccesful, they can anyway maintain the strategy in a quieter way... any 1,5 year or so, propose some not technically strong / cosmetic upgrade, and implement the real tech advances in the usual way-new models. - In both cases Leica cannot be charged of having done a "flop strategy" or to have not maintained its promises. Albeit a user of M8, I confess that in this timeframe I'm more interested in Leica as a management case... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 2, 2008 Share #63 Posted February 2, 2008 John, when I read the announcements, I see no reference to a "perpetual upgrade," but to a "perpetual upgrade program." That is, as I see it, the program is ongoing. Paying €1200 gets you upgrade #1 with a 2-year warranty. When upgrade #2 comes along, possibly within that warranty period, it will certainly have its own cost and will not be free to people who had upgrade #1 done. Upgrade #2 may or may not be dependent on having upgrade #1. If the earlier upgrade is a prerequisite, you will certainly be able to purchase both at the same time if necessary. It might even be less expensive to get the two done at the same time, since the camera only needs to be disassembled once--but don't bet on it. Speculation at the moment is that the quieter shutter now offered as part of upgrade #1 will be required for the upgrade to full-frame sensor. Andy Piper has suggested that even if the fullframe M8 is announced at photokina, it may not begin shipping then. If that's the case, it might be reasonable to get the first upgrade and go on shooting while you wait for the announcement of the second. (Doing so would also let you purchase the beast in installments.) But each attempt to see into the future takes us further into speculation. Those are my speculations; Guy is probably the closest to the matter, and he has several times said he should have more information Saturday Feb 2. Let's hope so. --HC Just got word that 25 percent of our questions are already answered and the rest are in the works. Leaving for Vegas now will have more info later folks. I will have to really find out now if the new shutter is required for the FF sensor but the good news is even if they took the existing sensor and made it bigger that looks to me like 16 or 18 mpx. But i am sure it will be a new sensor most likely from Kodak. I would suspect Kodak here folks so i would look and see what they have and than do the math and we maybe close. I know Kodak has a new sensor going. May want to look there first. Have fun and be calm your beating hearts. LOL BTW a new FF sensor than they have to address new frame lines Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted February 2, 2008 Share #64 Posted February 2, 2008 BTW a new FF sensor than they have to address new frame lines Roger that, w/o changing VF magnification much, the FL could be exchanged for the FL used in a late M4 type - 35 to 135mm with 75mm (I believe also used for the high mag version of the M6, 7). Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 3, 2008 Share #65 Posted February 3, 2008 Or just return to the standard 0.72x magnification and frames for 28 to 135, since the M6 just added the 28 and 75 to the M4 frameset without changing magnification. I wonder what part of their sales were the 0.85x magnification. The higher accuracy could be helpful for the sharper digital image, though at the loss of the 28 frame as you mention, Tom. And for me as a glasses wearer the 28 frame is virtually useless anyway. But uh-oh. They've discontinued the external 28mm viewfinder, haven't they? So they might not want to remove the framelines from the finder. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterlenz Posted February 3, 2008 Share #66 Posted February 3, 2008 Or just return to the standard 0.72x magnification and frames for 28 to 135, since the M6 just added the 28 and 75 to the M4 frameset without changing magnification. I wonder what part of their sales were the 0.85x magnification. The higher accuracy could be helpful for the sharper digital image, though at the loss of the 28 frame as you mention, Tom. And for me as a glasses wearer the 28 frame is virtually useless anyway. But uh-oh. They've discontinued the external 28mm viewfinder, haven't they? So they might not want to remove the framelines from the finder. --HC I suspect because the M8 is thicker the previous finders can't be duplicated exactly (tunnel effect?). It would be nice to have 28mm in the VF for FF, however. Reducing the current M8 VF mag would reduce focusing accuracy, which might not be acceptable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_panko Posted February 3, 2008 Share #67 Posted February 3, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have no need for the features offered in the Upgrade and I'm sure that Leica Marketing have estimated the number of upgrade sales to be low which is why the price is high. The real issue is that as users we have discovered flaws in the camera and we feel cheated. Upgrades to fix design flaws should be free and only new function should cost more. It's called buyer's remorse and it happens with every product. Personally I'm over that now and all that I want is assurance that Leica will fix my M8 it breaks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 3, 2008 Share #68 Posted February 3, 2008 But uh-oh. They've discontinued the external 28mm viewfinder, haven't they? So they might not want to remove the framelines from the finder. HC, the Frankenfinder goes up to 28mm FF, equivalent to using it on a WATE set to 21mm. Unless we could have a dual magnification finder, I'd go for 0.85 to aid focussing accuracy and live with using the finder for 16-28mm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted February 3, 2008 Share #69 Posted February 3, 2008 I suspect because the M8 is thicker the previous finders can't be duplicated exactly (tunnel effect?). You're right. I hadn't thought of that. But with a fullframe M, couldn't they redesign the finder for the earlier magnification? It may even be (pure assumption) that adding the 24mm framelines is what caused the reduction in framing accuracy: Still two metal sheets, but an additional set of cutouts while maintaining the integrity of both. At any event, we would certainly lose the 24mm frameset, and those who have been confusing it with the 35mm frameset would be vindicated. Reducing the current M8 VF mag would reduce focusing accuracy, which might not be acceptable. Precisely why I seconded your suggestion of returning to the previous 0.72x standard, and if possible going further to the 0.85x finder. Personally, I consider the 0.68x finder a failed attempt at convenience brought about by the 4/3 crop sensor. HC, the Frankenfinder goes up to 28mm FF, equivalent to using it on a WATE set to 21mm. Unless we could have a dual magnification finder, I'd go for 0.85 to aid focussing accuracy and live with using the finder for 16-28mm. Of course. Just not thinking. And since we know how accurate focusing needs to be with the M8, the greater magnification would be first on my list as well. Long live the Frankenfinder! --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted June 12, 2009 Share #70 Posted June 12, 2009 That'll be the end of that then? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 12, 2009 Share #71 Posted June 12, 2009 Sounds like it. If you have an M8 and are minded to upgrade, I'd do it sooner rather than later. Well worth it, by the way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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