should I leave my S007 for SL3?

[albireo_double]

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I have sold my S system after many years and now shoot with the SL3. Compared to what the S2 used to be vis a vis the FF cameras back in 2012, the image quality differential between the S3 and the SL3 is no longer that great, in my opinion. Both cameras offer the same resolution, a very digital look, very good dynamic range and great colours. The SL3 is easier to shoot with, especially portraits and people, and IBIS really helps. The SL APO Summicrons are the sharpest Leica lenses ever and are much smaller and lighter than the S lenses, thus allowing easier travel with the system. The only limitation is the relatively low flash speed sync - here the CS lenses clearly win for someone who often shoots with strobes outside. But I have managed fine with the SL cameras, using a variable ND filter in this scenario. I also like the possibility of using the SL camera as a platform for all other Leica lenses - like my 100mm APO Makro R which I use sometimes for film scanning. But the OP asked about IQ more than convenience. Bottom line for me is that I don't perceive much of a difference here any more (Note: Outside of Leica, I have shot extensively and still do with a Phase One IQ4 150, both on the XF camera with BR lenses and now more on the XT with the Rodenstock lenses - so I have some appreciation for IQ differences when they cross my path).

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[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

Personally I like to have eyes in focus, for me the S viewfinder is great but not great enough to reliable focus manual at shallow dof at such high resolution sensors.

also being able to keep exposire time at 1/250 or faster and still shooting relativly low iso is not a marketing gimmick imo. 
So yes, I would welcome a body with ibis and flexible af for the S lenses.

 

What did people ever do before IBIS and AF? Blurry, out-of-focus photos, I guess.

[Stuart Richardson]

21 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

What did people ever do before IBIS and AF? Blurry, out-of-focus photos, I guess.

People used tripod or flash. But they also did not have 40+ megapixels with razor sharp lenses, where it is very obvious when things are misfocused or blurry from movement. I still shoot tons of 4x5, 8x10, 6x7 and cameras without stabilization or AF, but it changes the kinds of images you have access to, or at least limits them at times. But for a working professional body that includes AF, it should be very accurate and consistent. The mirror alone in the S system is not accurate enough to fully trust. I literally had this conversation with Leica themselves and they said that the mirror could be out and still be within spec, and that the AF sensor was more accurate. As for IBIS, it is an extremely useful tool with very few downsides in comparison to its upsides. It also can be turned off if you do not want it or find it necessary. It did not make sense for the SLR version of the S, but it would be pretty strange to leave it out of a mirrorless version, assuming they do that in the future. 

Edited November 21 by Stuart Richardson

[Stuart Richardson]

As to the utility of IBIS, I had a very good demonstration of it once. During the eruptions here in 2021, I was able to take a helicopter on a evening flight to the volcano. I brought the SL2 with 50mm f2 and the Mamiya 7II with the 80 and 150mm lenses. Even though I set the shutter speed to 1/500th, the max speed, every single shot from the Mamiya out of the helicopter was blurry. There was so much vibration it just did not work. Meanwhile, almost all the SL2 shots were tack sharp. It was truly uncanny. I was very happy I had the SL2 with me at that point, and not the S3 or S006. 

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As to the utility of IBIS, I had a very good demonstration of it once. During the eruptions here in 2021, I was able to take a helicopter on a evening flight to the volcano. I brought the SL2 with 50mm f2 and the Mamiya 7II with the 80 and 150mm lenses. Even though I set the shutter speed to 1/500th, the max speed, every single shot from the Mamiya out of the helicopter was blurry. There was so much vibration it just did not work. Meanwhile, almost all the SL2 shots were tack sharp. It was truly uncanny. I was very happy I had the SL2 with me at that point, and not the S3 or S006. 

That's why hand-held stabilizers have been used for years for helicopter shots.

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

People used tripod or flash. But they also did not have 40+ megapixels with razor sharp lenses, where it is very obvious when things are misfocused or blurry from movement. I still shoot tons of 4x5, 8x10, 6x7 and cameras without stabilization or AF, but it changes the kinds of images you have access to, or at least limits them at times. But for a working professional body that includes AF, it should be very accurate and consistent. The mirror alone in the S system is not accurate enough to fully trust. I literally had this conversation with Leica themselves and they said that the mirror could be out and still be within spec, and that the AF sensor was more accurate. As for IBIS, it is an extremely useful tool with very few downsides in comparison to its upsides. It also can be turned off if you do not want it or find it necessary. It did not make sense for the SLR version of the S, but it would be pretty strange to leave it out of a mirrorless version, assuming they do that in the future. 

I like the filmic look I get from my S cameras. Sometimes I add a layer of grain or dye bursts to my images. Too sharp just looks fake and digital to me, lacking warmth and humanity for portraits, looking artificial for landscapes, not what I see with my eyes.

[ZHNL]

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I agree. S system shine for stop down shooting with good light. I find view and (manual)focus wide open is very enjoyable process that none of other system come close. IBIS Will actually help stop down shooting to achieve higher IQ at slower speed. 

however, shooting under time pressure and whenever we need rely on some autofocus S became a problem.  Then only if I can rely on manual focus at the time peaking or other focus aid of MILC will be handy, S OVF is not good enough to achieve that for me. 
 

I do get what I need in short term with GFX and Kipon using S glasses. Actually, GFX 100II has the best Eviewfinder I ever used out of any other system including SLx. Nail focus is not a challenge. 

Edited November 21 by ZHNL

[tom0511]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

What did people ever do before IBIS and AF? Blurry, out-of-focus photos, I guess.

How did people drive cars without safetybelt and abs?
first I think film was more forgiving regarding focus accurancy, due to thickness of emolution and grain. Second I believe  medium format in earlier times was not used for such a wide range of subjects and scenes how it is possible today.

third I believe microprism and split screens helped for accurate focus.

also the sharper lenses get and the more resolution sensors , the more you also want to take advantage of it and nail focus.

But I am not saying at all that things like af and ibis are a must for good and sharp photos (I took some of my favorite images with Leica M and Leica S), I just say these features sometimes help me and give me some more flexibility and a better rate of in focus images.

I allways understood the small digital medium cameras as an aproach to make these capable for some tasks which where 24x36 cameras area in earlier times.

 

 

 

[Pieter12]

(rant) I guess my point is progress has made people dependent on technology. Hardly anyone does math in their head anymore, people can't spell, don't read or bother to focus their cameras. They trust the computer to make decisions, to feed them information, with little or no critical thinking. A recent study states that average IQ scores have been declining in the last 20 years, possibly due to technology and screen time.

[Stuart Richardson]

So don’t use it…you have 150+ years of camera technology available to you, and all these systems can be disabled or ignored. It’s honestly pretty far-fetched to blame declining IQ scores on autofocus and IBIS. There is a massive difference between technological aids in a camera and things like social media, which are essentially massive companies or governments using psychological warfare to try to influence your behavior or mine your data. 

Anyway, I am sympathetic to what you are feeling, but I don’t think this hill is the particular one to die on. Something like single point AF is essentially just moving the focus ring more quickly and accurately to what you are pointing at, while IBIS just minimizes vibration. We have so much destructive technology these days, but these are so benign by comparison. 

[Pieter12]

19 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

So don’t use it…you have 150+ years of camera technology available to you, and all these systems can be disabled or ignored. It’s honestly pretty far-fetched to blame declining IQ scores on autofocus and IBIS. There is a massive difference between technological aids in a camera and things like social media, which are essentially massive companies or governments using psychological warfare to try to influence your behavior or mine your data. 

Anyway, I am sympathetic to what you are feeling, but I don’t think this hill is the particular one to die on. Something like single point AF is essentially just moving the focus ring more quickly and accurately to what you are pointing at, while IBIS just minimizes vibration. We have so much destructive technology these days, but these are so benign by comparison. 

I couldn't agree more. The thing is, some think AF and IBIS are vitally necessary.

[tom0511]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

I couldn't agree more. The thing is, some think AF and IBIS are vitally necessary.

I think in the end one has to find out what helps, what doesnt, and maybe more important, with which technilogy one feels at home.

For me there is a place from large format wet plate over medium format up to a Canon R1 which I love for sports and action, and even cell phone, for those who just want to cat ch the moment.

[GMB]

Interesting discussion. Over the past several years, I have used the S system (006, 007, S3) extensively for landscape and general travel photography. And each time I look through its beautiful viewfinder, I fall in love with the camera. And the files are simply gorgeous. 
 

However, in 2024, I added a SL3 with the 24-90 and the 90-280 plus a Sigma 20 to my arsenal. At first, I did not really like the SL (mostly because of the EVF) but now it has become my main camera. Lighter, more flexible, and ease of use. AF is not my main concern (except when doing portraits), but IBIS is really extremely helpful in many situations where you cannot use, or do not have, a tripod. 
 

But when it comes to serious landscape photography, the S3 on a tripod is still my favorite tool. 
 

Finally, so far I did not have any issues regarding service of the S cameras and lenses. In fact, I over the past couple of years, my S007 and 30-90 needed service. Both were repaired very fast and without charge, although they were no longer under warranty. 
 

Georg