Survey: Leica M EV1 – Future or mistake?

[Martin B]

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46 minutes ago, Anonautico said:

First of all, this does not increase the number of photographers, but only the number of snapshots. I understand photography to be something different from what I do with my pixel smartphone.

Unfortunately, I haven't had that experience. Many people in my community who had a camera with interchangeable lenses just a few years ago have completely switched to smartphones because they are now more than satisfied with the quality of the results.

Unfortunately, local developments in my city do not reflect this trend. Thirty years ago, we had five or six photo shops in the city. Sadly, none of them have survived and this has nothing to do with people only buying online, because two of these photo retailers also had a thriving online business years ago, which no longer exists either.

I also don't believe that cameras in the price range we're talking about are something you just order online. New customers certainly don't do that. At least, I don't know anyone who would just order a Leica M with two lenses for €15,000 to €20,000 online without seeing it first, unless they do so from the Leica store they have known and trusted for years. But then these are not new customers who are switching from smartphones to ILCs.

On my last vacation, as someone interested in photography, I paid attention to what other people were using to take pictures. It was the usual smartphone snapping, and I saw a Canon, Sony, or Nikon, which I could count on one hand. I was the only one with a Leica.

And unfortunately, I had a very annoying experience just a few days ago: I wanted to sell one of my Leicas to help finance the purchase of a Hasselblad X2D II, but unfortunately, my dealer told me that he wasn't buying any cameras at the moment because his warehouse was full and sales hadn't been going so well for months. Oops.

Of course, he only told me this because we've known each other privately for a few years.

I second this from my experience. Went on vacation to Germany in early summer this year, and no matter which places I visited, > 95% took photos with cellphones. People using dedicated cameras were at max 5%. I counted the same kind of brands you mentioned plus one using a 35 mm film based SLR. I was the only one with a digital Leica, too. I feel that camera usage has become so rare nowadays that most don't even see what camera you might be using - if it isn't a DSLR, they might just assume mirrorless if they even think as far. 

All mid-size and smaller photo stores both in the US area where I am living and close to my home town in Germany closed down in the past 10 years. No more option to purchase some used lens gear locally or just a few films for example - all gone. Best of luck finding any kind of B&W film in a regular drugstore. I found it impossible now - it was one reason why I am now traveling with my M 246 monochrome camera instead of using any of my Leica M film cameras. Even in a larger city you must scope out where photo stores are still located. Nearly all of my photo-related purchases I do online now. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

The total market is of little relevance to Leica: They are a niche manufacturer for a specialised market, which as far as I can tell, has grown rather than shrunk, especially in the Far East.

Depends, what you mean with "Far East". My impression in Hong Kong was that Leica (and other traditional "Made in Germany" brands) still enjoys a positive image and demand there. In the rest of China, it seemed rather negligible to me.

Now I've just returned from a 2.5-week trip to Japan. There, you still see a surprisingly large number of people using "real" cameras (mostly Fuji or Sony), but I only saw two Leica shooters the entire time. I spent about half an hour in the Leica Store in Kyoto, because it happened to be October 23rd (the launch of the E-MV1). During that time, I only saw one other visitor (a tourist from the USA, who was the second Leica shooter).

[pgk]

FWI I live in an area with many visitors. The VAST majority I see taking photos are doing so with a 'phone. Relatively few use dSLRs and of those a fair number are shooting with the 'kit' zoom which always suggests that they are not necessarily enthusiasts but want something 'better' than a 'phone. I see a much lowe number using cameras with interchangeable lenses who are obviously carry a couple of extra lenses. And in 5 years I've seen two people using film and two using Leicas! I would imagine that this is typical of the spread of the equipment that is used these days.

So Leica are a niche within a relatively small sector of photography. And the EV1 is a small and controversial (read threads on other fora) niche within this niche.

[LocalHero1953]

Plenty of cameras in use by tourists in this city. I can't always identify them - not too many DSLRs though - I think they are going the way of the dodo - Fuji and Sony are common. Most people taking photographs are using smartphones (or even tablets FFS!), but my impression is that, as others have said, they match the group who would have had a P&S hanging from their wrist in the olden days.

We still have two competent photography shops, but that's likely because of the income bracket of residents rather than tourists. Both sell film, but not at a price I would pay. There's a large thriving camera club that I avoid because I don't see photography as a competitive sport.

In short I don't see a downturn in photography with decent cameras or in enthusiast photography, just a substitution of smartphones for cheap P&S.

Edited 21 hours ago by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

As for camera shops, the  major ones  from a couple of decades ago have grown into huge concerns (Cameranu/Calumet and Kamera Express) with multiple photographic megastores all over the country and have gone international.  I cannot imagine  that could happen without solid sales. Beside those two there are plenty of smaller ones operating on the Internet but from physical shops. 

[Markey]

26 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Plenty of cameras in use by tourists in this city. I can't always identify them - not too many DSLRs though - I think they are going the way of the dodo - Fuji and Sony are common. Most people taking photographs are using smartphones (or even tablets FFS!), but my impression is that, as others have said, they match the group who would have had a P&S hanging from their wrist in the olden days.

We still have two competent photography shops, but that's likely because of the income bracket of residents rather than tourists. Both sell film, but not at a price I would pay. There's a large thriving camera club that I avoid because I don't see photography as a competitive sport.

In short I don't see a downturn in photography with decent cameras or in enthusiast photography, just a substitution of smartphones for cheap P&S.

I remember a camera shop there in the eighties window full of Leica`s ... or perhaps my memory is playing tricks.

[LocalHero1953]

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3 minutes ago, Markey said:

I remember a camera shop there in the eighties window full of Leica`s ... or perhaps my memory is playing tricks.

Yes, Campkins, which was both on King's Parade opposite King's College and another warren in Rose Crescent. I bought used Leica stuff from them and, much later, a M9. A descendant of that firm, with the same name, is one of the shops I referred to - still on King's Parade but a few doors along. They still have a good selection of used gear, including Leica - but not as much as before.

[Markey]

8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, Campkins, which was both on King's Parade opposite King's College and another warren in Rose Crescent. I bought used Leica stuff from them and, much later, a M9. A descendant of that firm, with the same name, is one of the shops I referred to - still on King's Parade but a few doors along. They still have a good selection of used gear, including Leica - but not as much as before.

That`s the one ... It was all very tempting .

[BWColor]

1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Depends, what you mean with "Far East". My impression in Hong Kong was that Leica (and other traditional "Made in Germany" brands) still enjoys a positive image and demand there. In the rest of China, it seemed rather negligible to me.

Now I've just returned from a 2.5-week trip to Japan. There, you still see a surprisingly large number of people using "real" cameras (mostly Fuji or Sony), but I only saw two Leica shooters the entire time. I spent about half an hour in the Leica Store in Kyoto, because it happened to be October 23rd (the launch of the E-MV1). During that time, I only saw one other visitor (a tourist from the USA, who was the second Leica shooter).

I visited Japan over the summer and noticed some mirrorless cameras and a couple of film cameras, but shops are full of old film cameras.  Does this mean everyone sold their film cameras, or that there is a major demand for film cameras?  Decades ago you would see thousands of Japanese tourist shooting with their film cameras.  They seemed to be everywhere and taking pictures of everything.  Today, their children and grandchildren mostly use their smartphones and far fewer vacation in Hawaii.  I agree with the suggestion above that the same demographic that used point and shoot cameras in days past, now use smartphones.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Your smartphone can take or make photographs. Denying that does not change the reality of the situation. Some of the best photographs ever taken were intended to be snapshots. You should read this book written by a good friend of mine.  

https://www.vitalsource.com/ie/products/an-illustrated-history-of-snapshot-photography-john-wade-v9781399079174?srsltid=AfmBOoq1E_2VAzMXru0wAf80MCBIEsNMtipkgTmar2kBslFBTpV4H7DX 

There are also fine-art trends that make elaborately constructed photographs that look like snapshots, or make snapshots that look like deliberate compositions, or make paintings that look like snapshots, or use snapshots in collage. etc... 

A good part of the reason why these work so well is because "snapshot" is often derogatory term in fine art. What's more fun than playing with people's prejudices?

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, willeica said:

Coming to this late, Jono, as I was in Montreal at the LSI Conference getting elected as President of the society. Yes, the genesis of the M EV1 was at our Dublin meeting 3 years ago. I chaired the session where Stefan Daniel, who loves everything about the traditional Leica M, said initially that if it did not have a rangefinder it could not be an M = Messsucher. After some questioning from the likes of Alan Weinschel, former LSI President, and Mike Evans of Macfilos, Stefan said that if there was demand for the camera the company might consider making it. The target size for breakeven was about 2,000 units. LSI conducted a survey and Leica AG carried out its own market research and a decision was made to produce the camera. The camera was launched at our meeting in Montreal last week at exactly the same time as in Europe - there were some bureaucratic issues which prevented the launch in the US, but it is only matter of time before it appears there. The camera was available at my dealer in Dublin last Wednesday when I visited.

In Montreal I tried Bill Rosauer's test version of the camera using a 35 year old 50mm Summicron lens which I had brought with me on a Canadian made M4-P. The, cropped for content, photo below shows French Canadian photographer Gaelle Leroyer (her work is great, check it out) doing a presentation of her photography at our meeting in Montreal. 

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I have never been a huge fan of EVFs or focus peaking etc. Notwithstanding a lot of eye surgery, I prefer the speed and precision of a well tuned optical rangefinder and I agree with my friend Paul (pgk) in this respect. However, I did find that I was getting more used to the M EV1 as time went on. It really is matter of choice and the tools for the job. For what it's worth, Gaelle produces superb work using a Leica M6.

Jono, you may be right about the young folk, but the first 2 of our LSI group to order the camera were in their late 70s and early 80s respectively. I am looking forward to hearing about how they get on with the camera.

William 

Stefan Daniel was recently quoted saying that the M11 was developed with the possibility of an EVF at some point, which is why it was possible to do so now with minimal cost and planning.  Since the M11 was released in January, 2022, the design and development was much earlier.  That suggests that Leica was steps ahead of the LSI discussions.  How do you reconcile these (apparent) timelines?

[Edward Schwartzreich]

In the Boston area 40 years ago, with several shops having rare-ish Leicas to sell as well as new ones, it was still rare enough to find someone on the street who knew what equipment I was shooting with, or cared, much less seeing Leicas around the neck of passers by.   Here in rural Vermont where I live now the situation feels equal.

Now most people use their phones, and why not?  To have a camera with you — whatever camera —  is 90% of making an image.  Days when I leave a Leica at home due to weather or simply to the weight of the outfit, there is always my phone.   I shoot these days with M10s or an M11, often with a 28.   Some people expect me to arrive with a Leica, especially to take monochrome images - I guess I am a feature around here.   Do I have competition from anyone with an actual camera here?  Rarely.

Leica has been a niche brand most of my adult life.  It currently is a really healthy niche brand.   

The M EV-1 is a niche inside a niche.  It is exactly what people in Dublin asked for.

[FrozenInTime]

9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Stefan Daniel was recently quoted saying that the M11 was developed with the possibility of an EVF at some point, which is why it was possible to do so now with minimal cost and planning.  Since the M11 was released in January, 2022, the design and development was much earlier.  That suggests that Leica was steps ahead of the LSI discussions.  How do you reconcile these (apparent) timelines?

This is probably why the M-EV1 feels four years behind. Change the flex-PCB that when to the visoflex to one that reaches internal EVF; content credential and internal memory could even have been main PCB BOM load changes. The Maestro III undoubtably has a slower clock rate and higher power consumption compared to the Maestro IV, as well as fewer DSP units, so firmware improvements will be heavily constrained. It is interesting they chose not to wait a year and cable in an EVF onto the M12. Instead, the M-EV1  seems obsolete out of the gate, and the value proposition is degraded, even though it is functional and capable.( If they wanted it to sell out instantly, they would have made it of brass, and painted it glossy black.)

I hope the discussion serves well as a catalyst for the M-EV2; throwing lots of NRE € straight at a difficult to quantify project might have resulted in a far worse outcome.

[willeica]

53 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Stefan Daniel was recently quoted saying that the M11 was developed with the possibility of an EVF at some point, which is why it was possible to do so now with minimal cost and planning.  Since the M11 was released in January, 2022, the design and development was much earlier.  That suggests that Leica was steps ahead of the LSI discussions.  How do you reconcile these (apparent) timelines?

That is rather inquisitorial! Yes, Leica had designed the M11 with a view to further electronic development, but in October 2022, they had not taken the decision to proceed with that in any way. We had dinner and pints of Guinness with Stefan and the matter was discussed at length as the company was somewhat nervous about proceeding with the concept if a market did not exist for a manual focus camera with an EVF. I also know that the EVF camera had to be designed after 2022 and underwent a number of iterations before it hit the market. Finally, Stefan Daniel stated last week that the 2022 Dublin LSI meeting was the moment of genesis for the M EV1.

That should be enough for you.

50 minutes ago, Edward Schwartzreich said:

.   

The M EV-1 is a niche inside a niche.  It is exactly what people in Dublin asked for.

Thanks Ed, that is spot on. Nobody has to buy this camera, but it is there for anyone who wants it. It was great to see you again in Montreal last week. 

32 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I hope the discussion serves well as a catalyst for the M-EV2; throwing lots of NRE € straight at a difficult to quantify project might have resulted in a far worse outcome.

That is actually both correct and funny. Every time a new digital camera appears people immediately start talking about the 'next one'.  As you imply, there is an element in this of Leica taking a risk here and remember the Leitz/Leica camera business started with a 'we shall take the risk' in June 1924. All of that was made clear at the meeting in Dublin in 2022. Time will tell. 

William 

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Stefan Daniel was recently quoted saying that the M11 was developed with the possibility of an EVF at some point, which is why it was possible to do so now with minimal cost and planning.  Since the M11 was released in January, 2022, the design and development was much earlier.  That suggests that Leica was steps ahead of the LSI discussions.  How do you reconcile these (apparent) timelines?

Hi Jeff

Leica had made the M11 with the possibility but decided not to do it. If you read the whole interview it’s clear that the Dublin meeting created the impetus to start it again

best

[jonoslack]

52 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

 

I hope the discussion serves well as a catalyst for the M-EV2; throwing lots of NRE € straight at a difficult to quantify project might have resulted in a far worse outcome.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Throwing lots of money at a hard to quantify project is exactly what they decided not to do!

I doubt this conversation will be very helpful (lots of ideas from people who never touched the camera!). But I’m certain that feedback from actual users will be extremely valuable. 
 

best

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jeff

Leica had made the M11 with the possibility but decided not to do it. If you read the whole interview it’s clear that the Dublin meeting created the impetus to start it again

best

Exactly my point… didn’t proceed until Dublin, but designed and built with the possibility, which would have been well before.  Not “inquisitorial” or confrontational, just curious.  
 

Seems earlier discussions than Dublin got design wheels in motion, then implementation halted, but resumed following Dublin. No?

[FrozenInTime]

23 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Throwing lots of money at a hard to quantify project is exactly what they decided not to do!

I doubt this conversation will be very helpful (lots of ideas from people who never touched the camera!). But I’m certain that feedback from actual users will be extremely valuable. 
 

best

Perhaps Leica could run a 48 hour loan program, for current M owners, with a survey to be completed on return. 

[willeica]

31 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jeff

Leica had made the M11 with the possibility but decided not to do it. If you read the whole interview it’s clear that the Dublin meeting created the impetus to start it again

best

I chaired the session in Dublin in 2022 where we discussed this possibility with Stefan and fed the questions to him. Jono you were there too and took many photos of the event.

See under 'Power to the People' Q 3 on this link

https://www.macfilos.com/2025/10/23/leica-m-ev1-stefan-daniel-on-the-background-to-leicas-latest-and-most-radical-m-camera-model/

William 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Perhaps Leica could run a 48 hour loan program, for current M owners, with a survey to be completed on return. 

I doubt you can form an opinion in 48 hours ownership. My opinion on best techniques has certainly changed within a week and may continue to change.