Survey: Leica M EV1 – Future or mistake?

[FrozenInTime]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I doubt you can form an opinion in 48 hours ownership. My opinion on best techniques has certainly changed within a week and may continue to change.

All those YouTube influencers Leica loves did !

[Eoin]

18 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

All those YouTube influencers Leica loves did !

I noticed all the Leica love, marketing dept did a wonderful job on them. The M-EVF launch seems to have had good exposure, plenty of YouTube content.

[jonoslack]

49 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Perhaps Leica could run a 48 hour loan program, for current M owners, with a survey to be completed on return. 

Interesting how opinions on the beta forum changed over 6 months - 48 hours really isn't time to get your head around it. 

[Alexander108]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Eoin:

The M-EVF launch seems to have had good exposure, plenty of YouTube content.

Plenty of YT content that practically did not differ. Most of them boring, self-flattering, nothing noteworthy or helpful at all. Statements like "this is the first time that M users can use an EVF" are plain wrong given that Visoflex 020 and 2 are out for a while.

Maybe this is just me. But after watching the 10th video with almost identical content I was rather frustrated to see 10x the very same story with very little differences. Only heads were different. 

[Edward Schwartzreich]

It is a pleasant camera and some will find it fits their needs.  It is exactly what was asked for.  I was not at all surprised by it when it arrived on my doorstep for testing.

[lykaman]

1 hour ago, Edward Schwartzreich said:

It is a pleasant camera and some will find it fits their needs.  It is exactly what was asked for.  I was not at all surprised by it when it arrived on my doorstep for testing.

How did you get on the List of testers? 

[elmars]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

You can tell in Your forum profile. 

[Derbyshire Man]

16 hours ago, Anonautico said:

First of all, this does not increase the number of photographers, but only the number of snapshots. I understand photography to be something different from what I do with my pixel smartphone.

Unfortunately, I haven't had that experience. Many people in my community who had a camera with interchangeable lenses just a few years ago have completely switched to smartphones because they are now more than satisfied with the quality of the results.

Unfortunately, local developments in my city do not reflect this trend. Thirty years ago, we had five or six photo shops in the city. Sadly, none of them have survived and this has nothing to do with people only buying online, because two of these photo retailers also had a thriving online business years ago, which no longer exists either.

I also don't believe that cameras in the price range we're talking about are something you just order online. New customers certainly don't do that. At least, I don't know anyone who would just order a Leica M with two lenses for €15,000 to €20,000 online without seeing it first, unless they do so from the Leica store they have known and trusted for years. But then these are not new customers who are switching from smartphones to ILCs.

On my last vacation, as someone interested in photography, I paid attention to what other people were using to take pictures. It was the usual smartphone snapping, and I saw a Canon, Sony, or Nikon, which I could count on one hand. I was the only one with a Leica.

And unfortunately, I had a very annoying experience just a few days ago: I wanted to sell one of my Leicas to help finance the purchase of a Hasselblad X2D II, but unfortunately, my dealer told me that he wasn't buying any cameras at the moment because his warehouse was full and sales hadn't been going so well for months. Oops.

Of course, he only told me this because we've known each other privately for a few years.

I don’t think that snapshots is a phone thing, it’s obviously about intention. Probably 90%+ of the example shots on here fit into the same bracket! Similarly I know people who pride themselves on a well executed landscape or portrait on their phone and how they can demonstrate that the SLR they have in their cupboard is now unnecessary. There’s also a trend for people to buy expensive P&S cameras like the Fuji X100 to allow greater creativity. In part this things are cyclical but it seems to me there is little doubt that mobile phones have replaced a huge number of camera sales as they are just so competent and you have it with you anyway, no one is carrying the modern version of Olympus trip/instamagics/olympus mju’s, cameras have become and are going to stay niche. To compete with phones you are going to need to be very pleasurable to use or do things a phone cannot do like sport or decent rapid manual control for creativity.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

I doubt this conversation will be very helpful (lots of ideas from people who never touched the camera!). But I’m certain that feedback from actual users will be extremely valuable.

Of course, I will look out for a chance to get hands on the M EV1 but I do not agree that only input from people, who already used it, will be helpful. I shoot M lenses (Leica, Voigtländer and in newer days Thypoch) since 2009 on lots of EVF equipped cameras and I owned the M9 (twice, the second one still in my hands) and the M240.

So I am pretty sure, that I have a good idea, what it means to shoot manual lenses on EVF (in comparison to optical RF) and I am pretty sure, I will see nothing new or different, when testing the M EV1 - and that is exactly the problem: Leica did not add any magic sauce that you cannot find on any other EVF camera with the option to adapt M lenses since many years (and that usually offers much more features and several of them in a smaller package).

On the contrary: I consider feedback from "hands-on" users of the M EV1, who otherwise only move within the Leica bubble, to be less meaningful than feedback from users who are active in multiple systems and therefore have the corresponding comparison opportunities - especially when we talk about the question "Future or mistake" (which is the topic of this thread).

Edited yesterday at 08:49 AM by 3D-Kraft.com

[pgk]

33 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Leica did not add any magic sauce that you cannot find on any other EVF camera with the option to adapt M lenses since many years (and that usually offers much more features and several of them in a smaller package).

And the M mount hampers the EV1 from being anywhere near as versatile as most other EVF cameras because the narrow throat diameter and relatvely long flange to sensor distance exclude many lenses from being adapted to it. One of the absolute benefits of most EVF cameras is their ability to use state-of-the-art AF lenses AND be adapted to use a vast array of manual lenses. I use both*. The EF1 does neither.

* I spent three days completing a shoot for a large (3.25m long at 1:1) montaged display recently copy a huge artwork on an old repro lens using a Sony A7II. This might have been possible with a dSLR but probably not due to the long flange to sensor distance which would almost certainly have caused too much vignetting (I didn't bother to try one). So EVF cameras are very versatile but to be versatile they need to be designed appropriately. The Nikons have the shortest flange to sensor distance and are on my list to try out. As I have said before the EV1 is looking backwars not forwards. As such it satisfies a concept not a reality.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I don’t think that snapshots is a phone thing, it’s obviously about intention. Probably 90%+ of the example shots on here fit into the same bracket! Similarly I know people who pride themselves on a well executed landscape or portrait on their phone and how they can demonstrate that the SLR they have in their cupboard is now unnecessary. There’s also a trend for people to buy expensive P&S cameras like the Fuji X100 to allow greater creativity. In part this things are cyclical but it seems to me there is little doubt that mobile phones have replaced a huge number of camera sales as they are just so competent and you have it with you anyway, no one is carrying the modern version of Olympus trip/instamagics/olympus mju’s, cameras have become and are going to stay niche. To compete with phones you are going to need to be very pleasurable to use or do things a phone cannot do like sport or decent rapid manual control for creativity.

I know quite a few young and not so young people who are using old Trips and Mjus etc because they want to use film and cannot afford an expensive camera. As for photographers' intentions a lot of people use their smartphones exactly the same way that HCB used his Leicas. The biggest issue in the photographic world today is that digitisation has led to a huge increase in the number of photographs being created and the quantity v quality paradigm is being strained. I chair a museum/gallery where we empty 3 curators and a lot of the work we show is film based, often because the artist has slowed down to use film. Another issue today is that many people confuse technical image quality with artistic image quality. This is particularly the case on gear-focussed forums such as this one. A 'better' camera does not necessarily guarantee 'better' images. Thankfully, a lot still depends on the photographer. Going back to the M EV1 there are some photographic tasks for which it is suitable, but there are others for which it would be unsuitable. Ultimately, it is all about photographers' choices and their skills.

10 hours ago, lykaman said:

How did you get on the List of testers? 

Ed has been writing about Leica cameras and lenses for many years. He has also been a member of LSI/LHSA for a long time and a number of LSI members were involved in testing the camera. I did not volunteer myself, even though I had been involved in the organisation and running of the discussion at the Dublin LSI meeting in 2022. I have had a cataract operation on my focussing eye since then and I would not regard myself as a reliable tester.

William 

Edited yesterday at 10:20 AM by willeica

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Of course, I will look out for a chance to get hands on the M EV1 but I do not agree that only input from people, who already used it, will be helpful. I shoot M lenses (Leica, Voigtländer and in newer days Thypoch) since 2009 on lots of EVF equipped cameras and I owned the M9 (twice, the second one still in my hands) and the M240.

So I am pretty sure, that I have a good idea, what it means to shoot manual lenses on EVF (in comparison to optical RF) and I am pretty sure, I will see nothing new or different, when testing the M EV1 - and that is exactly the problem: Leica did not add any magic sauce that you cannot find on any other EVF camera with the option to adapt M lenses since many years (and that usually offers much more features and several of them in a smaller package).

On the contrary: I consider feedback from "hands-on" users of the M EV1, who otherwise only move within the Leica bubble, to be less meaningful than feedback from users who are active in multiple systems and therefore have the corresponding comparison opportunities - especially when we talk about the question "Future or mistake" (which is the topic of this thread).

You are still assuming that people will buy this camera on the basis of its technical prowess (or not as it hasn’t much-I don’t disagree). 
I’m maintaining that nobody ever bought a Leica camera on the basis of its technical prowess (at least since 1960 - (how could they have done). 
So that saying this camera is doomed for its lack of technical prowess is missing the point!

The M EV1 has lots going for it: it has a fantastic interface, great image quality, a beautiful body and a wonderful selection of lenses for which it is specifically designed. There is all that Leica history, It’s lovely to shoot with and it makes a great consistent companion for an M11. 
 

Those are the reasons people will buy it! 
I would suggest that those who are saying they won’t buy it because of its technical shortcomings wouldn’t have bought it anyway (because Sony make smaller, cheaper more technically advanced bodies)

[sebben]

12 hours ago, Alexander108 said:

Plenty of YT content that practically did not differ. Most of them boring, self-flattering, nothing noteworthy or helpful at all. Statements like "this is the first time that M users can use an EVF" are plain wrong given that Visoflex 020 and 2 are out for a while.

Maybe this is just me. But after watching the 10th video with almost identical content I was rather frustrated to see 10x the very same story with very little differences. Only heads were different. 

It's because they are not allowed to say anything that goes off script, otherwise they won't get a camera to "review" and generate advertising revenue next time...

[Smudgerer]

I get what Jono is saying here in his last post, ( #312 ), and yes for me he's on the money. The M-EV1 isn't well stocked with what many people who are used to what other modern EVF / mirrorless cameras presently enjoy or expect and as such I hear the disappointments expressed here, but maybe, just maybe, they are missing the point of this camera release by Leica.

It is an attractive option for those who are already invested in the M system, not as the prime camera in the kit more as an secondary, a "B" camera perhaps and as such I can clearly see it's place. Sure it's expensive, too much so for what it is when you look at it in comparison to other choices out there, but that is not the point, it should not be looked at in that way, it's a Leica, did you really expect it to be offered at a bargain basement price?....And where and how it's made factors into it's pricing and let's face it you wouldn't be in this forum if you haven't endured some financial Leica induced GAS pain, so that is what it is......What one has to determine is whether the M-EV1 has a place in your M kit or not albeit perhaps in just a supportive role..........If not then just let all the criticisms go, they are a waste of time in my view. I think Leica knows what they are doing. Remember the same firm bought us the Monochrom, the D's and the Q, ( can't talk about the SL's, I've never handled or used one ), Leica might be frustrating but they are not stupid, with the M-EV1 just wait and see.

Edited yesterday at 11:42 AM by Smudgerer
grammar

[Derbyshire Man]

3 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I don’t think that snapshots is a phone thing, it’s obviously about intention. Probably 90%+ of the example shots on here fit into the same bracket! Similarly I know people who pride themselves on a well executed landscape or portrait on their phone and how they can demonstrate that the SLR they have in their cupboard is now unnecessary. There’s also a trend for people to buy expensive P&S cameras like the Fuji X100 to allow greater creativity. In part this things are cyclical but it seems to me there is little doubt that mobile phones have replaced a huge number of camera sales as they are just so competent and you have it with you anyway, no one is carrying the modern version of Olympus trip/instamagics/olympus mju’s, cameras have become and are going to stay niche. To compete with phones you are going to need to be very pleasurable to use or do things a phone cannot do like sport or decent rapid manual control for creativity.

Some phone shots that are not snaps; 

 

[Derbyshire Man]

Yes, I’m considering as a ‘C’ camera for a trip next year as an alternative to the Q3. I hate changing lenses and typically like a 21mm, 28/35mm and 50mm. The EV1 has the advantage that it makes the summilux 35mm v2 pre-asph a much more reliable companion. 
 

Of course it’s an expensive/heavy thing to do and I might just settle for 21mm and 35mm and leave it at that. The Q3 is also for AF duties (particularly darker spots like restaurants) and it seems likely that the EV1 would be slower and more frustrating. 
 

As a significant punt would certainly for me need to be used rather than new. 

Edited yesterday at 11:56 AM by Derbyshire Man

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

You are still assuming that people will buy this camera on the basis of its technical prowess (or not as it hasn’t much-I don’t disagree). 
I’m maintaining that nobody ever bought a Leica camera on the basis of its technical prowess (at least since 1960 - (how could they have done). 
So that saying this camera is doomed for its lack of technical prowess is missing the point!

The M EV1 has lots going for it: it has a fantastic interface, great image quality, a beautiful body and a wonderful selection of lenses for which it is specifically designed. There is all that Leica history, It’s lovely to shoot with and it makes a great consistent companion for an M11. 

Jono, I think we don't need to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this camera any further; I see a consensus there — also regarding comparisons to other systems.

However, our opinions diverge on who will still be motivated to buy such a camera in the future — and that's precisely the question of the future this thread is about.

The "experience" of consciously being held back by a "beautiful" camera and thus limiting oneself to the areas it can cover, in my view, won't be enough to attract the next generations. Of course, there will always be some younger people who are curious to engage with technology from the last century, just as there are still (or again) young people who buy vinyl records.

Many of them, however, won't see any reason to spend 8K plus a considerable amount on new, yet technically outdated, lenses, but will instead turn to the used market. It's similar to how I bought a used M9 to take a break from the perfection of a Sony A1, to enjoy the slower pace, and to see how I could still produce a decent photo despite all its limitations. I certainly wouldn't dream of investing in 8K again for that experience.

Furthermore, I don't find either the selection or the quality of Leica lenses outstanding (any more). Yes, there are a few gems with character that I've picked out. But since 2018 (the Noctilux 75/1.25), there hasn't been anything truly new. Perhaps that will change with the M-EV1 and the 35mm Noctilux, which is apparently already on its way.

So, the M-EV1 ist not the future but also not a mistake. It just may be a little step towards a future in that hopefully Leica find it's way for next generations.

Edited yesterday at 12:11 PM by 3D-Kraft.com

[SrMi]

As small, inconspicuous, high-IQ, high-enjoyment cameras, the M are, in my experience, unbeatable. That is, regardless of whether they are used with EVF or a rangefinder. The only disadvantage —and why I may pick another camera —is the lack of long zoom and IBIS.

[Steve Ash]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb 3D-Kraft.com:

 

On the contrary: I consider feedback from "hands-on" users of the M EV1, who otherwise only move within the Leica bubble, to be less meaningful than feedback from users who are active in multiple systems and therefore have the corresponding comparison opportunities - especially when we talk about the question "Future or mistake" (which is the topic of this thread).

The issue is that you tend to ignore that the vast majority of actual Leica M users has absolutely no interest in the Leica M becoming like the multiple system you have in mind. So go out shooting with this wonderful multiple systems and enjoy life instead of bothering about something that will never exist.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[FrozenInTime]

I've been thinking about the manual focus, moving object tracking problem that experienced when switching from a rangefinder to an EVF system.

With the rangefinder while you are focusing, you can see the rate of change between the rangefinder image and the subject, so you can vary your rate of focus pulling to achieve an intercept. There is not an equivalent in the EVF when you are using blur i.e. contrast to determine focus, and punching in zoom further takes you out of the moment.

If the M-EV rangefinder cam position was digitised and calibrated for absolute distance, this could be displayed graphically as a sliding pointer.

If an electro-optical rangefinder or lidar is also employed, providing  an absolute distance measure, and is also displayed as a slider, we now have two distinct markers.

The game is then to manually focus to keep the on top of each other. Their relative rates of change allows focus tracking.

The DSP in the EORF/Lidar is independent from the camera's processor, so low profile accessory shoe mount is possible. If the data stream is Cooke/i compatible the units conform to an existing cine standard.