Time lag (M11 and others)

[Smogg]

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I measured the lag for my cameras. Based on the average of five measurements:

M11 OVF 0.34ms,

M11 LV 0.44ms,

GFX100RF 0.23ms,

X100VI 0.25ms,

X2D2 0.23ms,

X2D2 HDR 0.28ms.

I assume the EV1 will be no different from the M11 LV.

Practical shooting shows that photographing a calmly walking person using the LV (Visoflex) on the M11 is very difficult; getting the stride phase right requires a lot of effort.

Edited yesterday at 05:29 AM by Smogg

[Smogg]

Ricoh GR IIIx HDF 0.28ms

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

I measured the lag for my cameras. Based on the average of five measurements:

M11 OVF 0.34ms,

M11 LV 0.44ms,

GFX100RF 0.23ms,

X100VI 0.25ms,

X2D2 0.23ms,

X2D2 HDR 0.28ms.

I assume the EV1 will be no different from the M11 LV.

Practical shooting shows that photographing a calmly walking person using the LV (Visoflex) on the M11 is very difficult; getting the stride phase right requires a lot of effort.

Nice. Can you share how you measured? IIRC, using automatic metering modes introduces additional lag with M cameras. It would be interesting to see the lag in fully manual mode vs. a mode where metering happens with the shutter press.

[Smogg]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Nice. Can you share how you measured? IIRC, using automatic metering modes introduces additional lag with M cameras. It would be interesting to see the lag in fully manual mode vs. a mode where metering happens with the shutter press.

I used the stopwatch on my iPhone and took a photo every 10 seconds (as soon as I saw the 0 in the desired position). All cameras were in manual mode and prefocused before taking the photo, and the shutter button was half-pressed. This way, the exposure was locked, and no processor resources or time were wasted on measuring it. All measurements were taken at 1/250s and with the aperture wide open.

Edited yesterday at 06:50 AM by Smogg

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I used the stopwatch on my iPhone and took a photo every 10 seconds (as soon as I saw the 0 in the desired position). All cameras were in manual mode and prefocused before taking the photo, and the shutter button was half-pressed. This way, the exposure was locked, and no processor resources or time were wasted on measuring it. All measurements were taken at 1/250s and with the aperture wide open.

I doubt you can measure times of 0.34ms that way, since the iPhone's resolution is only 10ms😜. You probably meant .34sec. 

Similar measurements for M-EV1 also show .34 sec.

A better way to measure would be to record with the video camera and the stopwatch running. That way, you can determine precisely when the shutter is released.

BTW, Sean Reid measured the mechanical M11 shutter lag at 0.064 sec. RedDotForum had the following measurements (link) :

• M11 RF (mechanical): 13ms
• M11 RF (electronic): 22ms
• M11 LV (mechanical): 20ms
• M11 LV (electronic): 28ms
• M10 RF: 11ms
• M10 LV: 18ms

By anticipating the appearance of zero, you eliminated much of the human reaction time (average 250ms). Or did you not? Why would there be a 100ms difference between RF and M11 when considering other shutter lag measurements?

Edited yesterday at 07:19 AM by SrMi

[Smogg]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I doubt you can measure times of 0.34ms that way, since the iPhone's resolution is only 10ms😜. You probably meant .34sec. 

Similar measurements for M-EV1 also show .34 sec.

A better way to measure would be to record with the video camera and the stopwatch running. That way, you can determine precisely when the shutter is released.

BTW, Sean Reid measured the mechanical M11 shutter lag at 0.064 sec. RedDotForum had the following measurements (link) :

• M11 RF (mechanical): 13ms
• M11 RF (electronic): 22ms
• M11 LV (mechanical): 20ms
• M11 LV (electronic): 28ms
• M10 RF: 11ms
• M10 LV: 18ms

By anticipating the appearance of zero, you eliminated much of the human reaction time (average 250ms). Or did you not? Why would there be a 100ms difference between RF and M11 when considering other shutter lag measurements?

Of course, I meant seconds. 😁

I agree that the measurements would be more accurate with a video camera, but I think human reaction shouldn't be ruled out, since we're dealing with different eye stimuli with different cameras.

It would be better to take 20 measurements for accuracy and discard the three best and three worst. But I'm too lazy😁

The difference between the RF and M11 may be due to the stiffness of the shutter button and the length of its travel. 🤷‍♂️

[SrMi]

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1 minute ago, Smogg said:

Of course, I meant seconds. 😁

I did not see it either, until I wanted to mention the 250-ms human reaction time. 😁

2 minutes ago, Smogg said:

The difference between the RF and M11 may be due to the stiffness of the shutter button and the length of its travel. 🤷‍♂️

Which also matters.

[Edax]

2 hours ago, Smogg said:

I measured the lag for my cameras. Based on the average of five measurements:

M11 OVF 0.34ms,

M11 LV 0.44ms,

GFX100RF 0.23ms,

X100VI 0.25ms,

X2D2 0.23ms,

X2D2 HDR 0.28ms.

I assume the EV1 will be no different from the M11 LV.

Practical shooting shows that photographing a calmly walking person using the LV (Visoflex) on the M11 is very difficult; getting the stride phase right requires a lot of effort.

Same test with two of my Nikons:

D850 (flapping mirror included): ~0,24s

Z9 (looking through the EVF): ~0,24s

 

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I did not see it either, until I wanted to mention the 250-ms human reaction time. 😁

Which also matters.

Measured using a video camera, excluding human reaction. X2D2 6-7 ms, GFX100RF 6-7 ms, M11 LV 22 ms.

[Edax]

31 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Measured using a video camera, excluding human reaction. X2D2 6-7 ms, GFX100RF 6-7 ms, M11 LV 22 ms.

How exactly did you do this?

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Measured using a video camera, excluding human reaction. X2D2 6-7 ms, GFX100RF 6-7 ms, M11 LV 22 ms.

Thanks for the effort. If you include human reaction time, the camera delays are negligible. The fast ones are both leaf shutter cameras. I wonder if leaf shutters have less lag than focal-plane shutters. I wish M11 had EFCS, which would improve time and, more importantly, reduce shutter noise and shutter shock.

[padam]

There is another real-life variable with Live view, which is the lag of the actual preview.
Side-by-side, Leica SL2 feels a bit slower than a Canon R5.
Cameras with stacked sensors optimized for sport shooting tend to have the least amount of lag.

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, Edax said:

How exactly did you do this?

I placed one iPhone on the floor with the stopwatch running and aimed the camera at it, focusing while still holding the shutter button halfway down. The second iPhone captured a slow-motion video of the rear camera screen. Made shot. When analyzing the video (240fps), I looked at the last visible time before the screen went black and compared it to the time captured in the camera's image.

Edited 23 hours ago by Smogg

[Smogg]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Thanks for the effort. If you include human reaction time, the camera delays are negligible. The fast ones are both leaf shutter cameras. I wonder if leaf shutters have less lag than focal-plane shutters. I wish M11 had EFCS, which would improve time and, more importantly, reduce shutter noise and shutter shock.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the m11 LV. I notice the difference in practice when shooting moving subjects.

[Ecar]

6 hours ago, Smogg said:

Practical shooting shows that photographing a calmly walking person using the LV (Visoflex) on the M11 is very difficult; getting the stride phase right requires a lot of effort.

I never use the continuous shooting mode, but would that be an acceptable workaround?

[Smogg]

6 minutes ago, Ecar said:

I never use the continuous shooting mode, but would that be an acceptable workaround?

This is the only way I shoot with the M11 when I want to be sure I can select a shot later without foot hanging in the air.