Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder

[Homo Faber]

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vor 14 Stunden schrieb DenverSteve:

When one is tired of the speculation, here is Hugh Brownstone's hands-on review. Hugh is a long-time Leica shooter and educator. 

 

 

Well, he is just another influencer helping Leica selling their products. Nothing more, nothing less. They are a dime a dozen these days…

[JNK100]

11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I keep my Q3 43 and SL3-S at 60 - I don't notice any deficiencies in visual quality, and it saves battery. But then I use those cameras only in AF.

My Q3 is always set as 60 and it's perfect for me.

[JNK100]

Just now, Homo Faber said:

Well, he is just another influencer helping Leica selling their products. Nothing more, nothing less. They are a dime a dozen these days…

I never used YouTube videos to gain information. Objective written reviews are the only ones I pay attention to.

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

Well, he is just another influencer helping Leica selling their products. Nothing more, nothing less. They are a dime a dozen these days…

No, he is not. He is one of the more respected YouTube creators.

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

My Q3 is always set as 60 and it's perfect for me.

Ditto. 

[Mute-on]

18 minutes ago, JNK100 said:

I never used YouTube videos to gain information. Objective written reviews are the only ones I pay attention to.

All reviews are subjective, written or otherwise. The only part of any so called review that is objective is that part in which the factual specifications are reported.

[elmars]

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

No, he is not. He is one of the more respected YouTube creators.

Sorry, but I can't stand the way he talks. Besides, in my opinion, he exaggerated a report about a defect in his personal M11 in order to get preferential treatment from Leica. 

[LocalHero1953]

A review is worthless if it's by someone you've never watched/read and never heard of. A review is worth taking note of if you have found the reviewer's previous reviews match your own subsequent experience.

When I've bought a camera or lens reviewed by Jono Slack and some others, I tend to find my conclusions about it match his - so I keep reading his stuff. 

Edited yesterday at 07:50 AM by LocalHero1953

[Homo Faber]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

No, he is not. He is one of the more respected YouTube creators.

Well, of course he is. He helps companies selling their products to the public. Or do you really think he runs his YT channel out of the goodness of his heart?

He may come across a little more slick and elaborated with his elder statesman attitude for some (other may find his style a little affected) but he is an influencer nonetheless. Oh, and don't make the mistake of confusing influencer with ‘I have no clue what I'm talking about'.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, elmars said:

Sorry, but I can't stand the way he talks. Besides, in my opinion, he exaggerated a report about a defect in his personal M11 in order to get preferential treatment from Leica. 

I did not say I like his videos  ... "hold that thought" 🤣

He was part of the group of reviewers invited by Leica for the launch. This is a funny video, which shows how such a meeting goes:

 

 

[Ne314satel]

The type of camera you use doesn't really affect the quality of your photos. It's like asking a writers what model of computer or typewriter they used to write their novel. Photo quality has nothing to do with it. It's all about psychology, habits, lifestyle, and so on. Personally, I enjoy using a rangefinder; it has no lag, it instantly captures what I see. And even the capabilities of the M11 are often excessive for me compared to the film M6 or even the digital M9. As for the EV1, I think it's a commercial hack, but that's what everyone's doing these days—minimum innovation, maximum advertising. So Leica just wants to make more money. Without me.

[Derbyshire Man]

I’m not so sure. In respect of the EV1 for me it has a benefit, with unpredictable lenses like the summilux 35mm pre-asph it would deliver more keepers, the visoflex in my view does not have enough resolution for this wide open (and therefore with focus shift and flare risk +++) but Q3/EV1 with low sensitivity peaking on does. At f8 focus isn’t critical and I can read this off the scale if I have to! More keepers = good. Yes there’s a price to pay but there is still a benefit.

I read much of the criticism on here, the invective and top spin as unnecessary, the community asked for an EVF M, another part of the community said it was heresy, the same balance occurred in Leica itself! Despite this they still put together a product and importantly a potential product line for the future. While I wish the cameras cost the same as a Fuji I think the ability for Leica to do seemingly crazy stuff like monochrome sensors, cameras without rear screens (both of which I own and absolutely love) is in part only possible due to the cost of the products across the range. Leica do a much better job of listening to customers and providing what they want than for example the Japanese mega corps. They are smaller and more fleet of foot.

Yes there are background problems with repair times (improving) and I’d love to see more resource into the firmware side of things but over all they are trying and I feel slightly embarrassed when I read some of the threads that have cropped up on here around the EV1. There are people in the community and within Leica who have stuck their necks out on this. Can we remember that behind the products and the YouTube videos there are real people and at least maintain a modicum of humanity?

Edited yesterday at 08:36 AM by Derbyshire Man

[LocalHero1953]

21 minutes ago, Ne314satel said:

The type of camera you use doesn't really affect the quality of your photos. It's like asking a writers what model of computer or typewriter they used to write their novel. Photo quality has nothing to do with it. It's all about psychology, habits, lifestyle, and so on. Personally, I enjoy using a rangefinder; it has no lag, it instantly captures what I see. And even the capabilities of the M11 are often excessive for me compared to the film M6 or even the digital M9. As for the EV1, I think it's a commercial hack, but that's what everyone's doing these days—minimum innovation, maximum advertising. So Leica just wants to make more money. Without me.

I agreed with you - up to your last two sentences.

Just because a camera doesn't suit our needs/wants, it doesn't make it a 'commercial hack' or any other of the negative phrases that have been used in the last few days. And there is nothing actually wrong with making a camera to sell. Of course Leica wants to make money. It just won't sell to you (or me). Is that somehow wrong?

[Smudgerer]

2 hours ago, Daniel C.1975 said:

I agree with you.

But for what it‘s worth, for me Leica has left the area of realism with their pricing a few years ago - especially with the M-line.

I love and use my Q3, I meanwhile leave the SL2-S more often than not at home and sometimes feel an itch to get a M again. But honestly with the M11 they really kicked it over any sensible boundary. And no, I am not too poor to afford one, I easily can, but I am evaluating the value I get for my money (which is to a certain degree subjective, so no one needs to feel offended).

Back to the EV1: One argument for the price of the M always was the complex optical design of the viewfinder. Now, the EV1 comes for roughly 10% less.

I say, in the world of M this fairly priced, just not for me. On the other hand, if you have a bunch of m-glass and your eyes are not what they used to be, I think this is an attractive offer for many already M-user. But I don‘t See the attraction for new user, at least not in the current competitive landscape (Some mentioned the Hasselbladt, not sure if this is a good comparison due to size, but for sure it is a higher value for the spend money). I‘d say for 6k€ not many would argue, but hey, what would a new Leica announcement be worth without us bitching about the too high price 😀

The biggest draw back I see, is focusing with just the old fashioned focus peeking when stopped down. At open aperture it should be really good, as it is on the Q or SL-x with a manual lense. But stopped down, it will be a guessing game. Of course, zone-focusing is always an option, but you don‘t need an EVF to do so. 
 

I stick to the point: A Q with L-Mount at below 5k€ might have missed the iconic momentum, but would have been more versatile and might have attracted more people.

Still, for some it is what they‘ve dreamed of for years and I am happy for them.

 

 

An excellent synopsis.......

[Smudgerer]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

Sorry, but I can't stand the way he talks. Besides, in my opinion, he exaggerated a report about a defect in his personal M11 in order to get preferential treatment from Leica. 

Agreed, flat out boring and quite in love with himself too...............

[Kiwimac]

When is the EV1 Monochrom due? 
 

That has more value to me because the EVF will show the black and white image all the time. 

[Homo Faber]

For me the new Leica MEV1 is a huge disappointment.

The MEV1 clearly shows that Leica is no longer capable of producing genuine innovations in camera development. The first digital M was still a real advancement: digital ‘film’ for a mechanical rangefinder camera. Now would have been the opportunity to show that Leica still has what it takes when it comes to focusing with manual lenses. But unfortunately, this is not the case. Is simple focus peaking, as found on cameras that cost a fraction of the EV1, supposed to be the solution? It would have been enough for Leica to offer something that was at least on a par with Nikon, Canon or Hasselblad in terms of manual focusing. It really can't be right that you can focus better with a Nikon ZF with M lenses than with a Leica EV1:

 

The technical explanations (I am not a technician) that have already been mentioned here in the forum as to why it was not possible to do otherwise certainly all make sense, but in my opinion they miss the point. Leica should have used a faster processor and a different sensor. And for the purely mechanical lenses, they could have added or built in an adapter that ‘electrified’ them. Either I want to build ‘technology that inspires’, in which case I obviously have to invest, or I clear my shelves and just build in whatever is available so that the current profit margins are higher. Leica has clearly opted for the latter. And that's a shame.

I also find the ‘Leica wants to test the market first’ argument unconvincing – who is really going to be excited about the (inherently) flawed focus peaking, except existing M customers whose eyesight has deteriorated? New customers under 50 who are interested in photography are unlikely to be. For them, manual focusing is about as interesting as writing with a real fountain pen. And if it's implemented so mediocrely, why spend so much money on it? Other manufacturers have now also entered the prestigious premium segment.

I don't want to speculate about the reasons why this is the case. But it's certainly not because the engineers in Wetzlar are incompetent.

 

[Derbyshire Man]

Have you ever considered that Leica may have some employees who’ve thought about it just a bit harder and deeper than a random bloke on a forum with 125 posts? You may not agree with their strategy and road map but the most likely reason for that is you don’t have access to and/or understand the other factors at play.

for the avoidance of doubt, me neither!

Edited yesterday at 09:19 AM by Derbyshire Man

[hexx]

One area where I struggled with M240 (and to lesser extent with M6) was shallow DoF and off center compositions. That eventually resulted in sale of both and they were replaced by Q3 as I mostly used 28 Summicron.  I often use Q3 with manual focus. The way I have it set up is magnification is off and called on by FN button. I can easily frame my photo and focus via EVF and if I need more precise adjustment, I move the AF box where I need it to be and press FN button for magnified view. That’s exactly the same setup I tried in the shop yesterday on M EV1. 
 

This is fast enough for me as shallow DoF - at least for me - always is slower approach and for larger DoF I usually get away with zone/hyper focal focusing. It of course depends on the focal length.
 

What I do like about M EV1 is the ability to use longer focal lengths (90/135) or adapted R lenses (I hope it’s possible) as there are some gems to be found for reasonable cost. And even though majority of my use is OK with 28mm sometimes I wish I had a longer lens. Crop isn’t replacement for it.

 

I’m not a professional photographer so camera is used for everything from holidays, parties, walk around, cat and product photos of stuff that is no longer needed. And M EV1 fits that quite nicely. I used to use M240 with Nikon Macro lens and Visoflex 1 but it was way too low res. 

Edited yesterday at 09:37 AM by hexx

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[FrozenInTime]

23 minutes ago, Homo Faber said:

For me the new Leica MEV1 is a huge disappointment.

The MEV1 clearly shows that Leica is no longer capable of producing genuine innovations in camera development. The first digital M was still a real advancement: digital ‘film’ for a mechanical rangefinder camera. Now would have been the opportunity to show that Leica still has what it takes when it comes to focusing with manual lenses. But unfortunately, this is not the case. Is simple focus peaking, as found on cameras that cost a fraction of the EV1, supposed to be the solution? It would have been enough for Leica to offer something that was at least on a par with Nikon, Canon or Hasselblad in terms of manual focusing. It really can't be right that you can focus better with a Nikon ZF with M lenses than with a Leica EV1:

 

The technical explanations (I am not a technician) that have already been mentioned here in the forum as to why it was not possible to do otherwise certainly all make sense, but in my opinion they miss the point. Leica should have used a faster processor and a different sensor. And for the purely mechanical lenses, they could have added or built in an adapter that ‘electrified’ them. Either I want to build ‘technology that inspires’, in which case I obviously have to invest, or I clear my shelves and just build in whatever is available so that the current profit margins are higher. Leica has clearly opted for the latter. And that's a shame.

I also find the ‘Leica wants to test the market first’ argument unconvincing – who is really going to be excited about the (inherently) flawed focus peaking, except existing M customers whose eyesight has deteriorated? New customers under 50 who are interested in photography are unlikely to be. For them, manual focusing is about as interesting as writing with a real fountain pen. And if it's implemented so mediocrely, why spend so much money on it? Other manufacturers have now also entered the prestigious premium segment.

I don't want to speculate about the reasons why this is the case. But it's certainly not because the engineers in Wetzlar are incompetent.

 

I think your comparison is not apples for apples : An auto-focus helicoid adapter could exist if there was demand, but it would have to be for a L-mount camera. Just like Nikon, a short sensor flange distance << 27mm  is a pre-requisite to fit in an adapter.

The M EV1 seems to have a narrow niche, almost as if it were a classic medium format camera, where considered composition dictates speed of photography; not so much for dynamic situations. Clearly the choice of sensor and processing ability in this first iteration are at their limits.

I like the idea of a EVF M, and this first step gives great value immediately for some users, and provides a frame of reference for future discussions. For general use I think a sensor change is necessary along with more processing power for focus aids.