Jono: A Leica M EV1 Review

[Kiwimac]

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Lovely images Jono. There’s something about them that seems different. I can’t quite put my finger on what. It’s a technical difference rather than artistic - your images are quite recognisable! There’s a sharpness or level of detail that feels different. 
 

Would I buy this? Only if I really really wanted to use exotic things like the 90 f1.5 etc

 I think I’d probably prefer a Q3 43.

 However, I very much like my M11-P Safari. If I happened to find enough money down the back of the sofa to spend this much, I’d re-acquire the 35 Apo. 

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[costa43]

38 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Yes indeed - if you read the interview with Stefan it's clear that they are working on improving the rangefinder radically for the first time in 50 years! 

I don't think there is anything to argue with here . . . . The M11 had some teething troubles, but they continued to work incredibly hard on it (I know because there were continual beta teams testing changes to the firmware over the last couple of years). 

I read the article, I hope they are working on a closer focusing rangefinder. I do not understand whether this is mechanically possible but it would be absolutely amazing if we could use our lenses at closer distances without having to go into LV. It would also drive up lens sales for Leica I'm sure.

[jonoslack]

16 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

First, and as always, deep appreciation for the effort, emotion and no doubt angst poured into this review.  

And there in lies the rub.  I am quite sad to say that I see this effort as a half hearted one, a missed opportunity and very likely after the initial euphoria, self fulfilling prophesy from a sales PoV. I hope.. I think... see below... to have misjudged the appeal of this camera, but as a long time advocate of such an M version, I can not help but express disappointment over whats on offer, particularly in light of its cost vs an M11 + Viso.  As you so correctly stated in your review, the speed of focusing via EVF tends to dictate a slower pace than can be achieved via more classical means.  Why then would one forego the versatility of the ORF + Viso combination if all that added flexibility comes for, in the US, $900 + the cost of a Viso, which those who have been waiting for such a camera already have?  A little less weight + better EVF resolution is not much compensation particularly when further offset by the Viso's waist level capability.  What was required, in my view, was a deep rethink of a fully manual camera in the age of silicon, EVFs, IBIS and AI.  Perhaps I've missed something. but I fail to see any evidence of that.  Given this concept has been argued out on these pages for a decade or more, I just can't be all that enthusiastic about the M-EV's introduction. 

As for the focusing conundrum, I had hoped given Leica's track record of innovation, they would have tackled the issues head on. While its true that the inclusion of a PDAF capable sensor would likely provide the best solution, it by no means is the only one. I am still shooting quite frequently with my SL2. Last I checked, the CDAF was still in place and working just fine. I would had expected an EVF only M, at a minimum, to incorporate some adaptation of this existing CDAF firmware for focus confirmation.  Perhaps this could happen at a later date, but given no mention of such an update, I've no reason at this point to be optimistic.

And in fact, the release of this camera has me downright pessimistic.  While Leica has stated that the M-EV1 is in no way an existential threat to the M itself, AFAICT, they've made no such statement regarding the Viso.  Somewhat ironic given the reaction of long time M users to the notion EVF based M, I too have now developed a deep fear that the availability of an EVF M could ultimately kill my beloved M/Viso.  A combination, which over a many tens, if not hundreds of thousands of frames shot spanning each generation of M from the 240 straight through to the 11, I have come to see both as singularly unique and the optimal solution when it comes to utilizing the entire family of M optics under the widest variety of conditions. 

Bottom line: As a long time EVF/M user, I'll be sticking with my 10R/11 combo for the foreseeable future. 

 

First of all - thank you! it was a bit of an effort!

I take your point with respect to the rub - but I don't agree - I acknowledge the discussions over the years, but this is a toe in the water, and a reluctant one at that. Leica are not convinced that it will be a success (although actually it's beginning to look like it will be). Deep rethink there certainly has been, and it is still going on, but what they did not to is to jump on to one of the possible different approaches. The time to do that is when you are sure there is a market for it - if the M EV1 sells well then they can be pretty sure that there will be. In the meantime spending lots of money on R&D on this side project clearly wasn't a good idea. Trying to produce something good enough to challenge an optical rangefinder for manual focus is something a competitor might find worthwhile - but why would Leica? if it was a good competitor it would just cancel M11 sales.

As for the focusing conundrum - there are a few advantages with the M EV1 which will certainly make it a worthwhile addition for lots of users - and an alternative for some others - I've already had quite a lot of emails from people who have never bought a rangefinder . . . . but intend to buy this - now THAT is something Leica will like to hear. Installing CDAF would be a real backward step - it isn't very good for manual focus confirmation anyway, but it would still need new hardware and software in the camera. 

As for your downright pessimism - why on earth would they stop making the Viso for M cameras with optical rangefinders? I don't think they needed to make a statement, they would be mad to stop (after all it doesn't need any new technology). Of course I don't know everything, but I do know that they are absolutely and fundamentally committed to the development of the M camera - they are full of ideas which they investigate thoroughly- the future of your M/Viso combination is bright indeed! 

Incidentally - Have you read this interview? ( https://chatsphotog.com/musings/f/stefan-daniel-on-the-leica-m-ev1 ) - it might make you feel a bit better!

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

20 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

Lovely images Jono. There’s something about them that seems different. I can’t quite put my finger on what. It’s a technical difference rather than artistic - your images are quite recognisable! There’s a sharpness or level of detail that feels different. 
 

Would I buy this? Only if I really really wanted to use exotic things like the 90 f1.5 etc

 I think I’d probably prefer a Q3 43.

 However, I very much like my M11-P Safari. If I happened to find enough money down the back of the sofa to spend this much, I’d re-acquire the 35 Apo. 

Hi There 

Thank you for the kind words (I'm always happiest when someone likes my snapshots). I have slightly changed how I produce them for the websites, so that might be the difference? 

I'd like your M11-P Safari as well (keep it well locked up) . . . .  I have a Q3 43 and I just love it (even though the Q range weren't for me at 28mm) . . . . and my 35 APO is seldom off my M11!

Sadly - my sofa has been dredged so many times that I know it's empty!

[jonoslack]

7 minutes ago, costa43 said:

I read the article, I hope they are working on a closer focusing rangefinder. I do not understand whether this is mechanically possible but it would be absolutely amazing if we could use our lenses at closer distances without having to go into LV. It would also drive up lens sales for Leica I'm sure.

I'm absolutely certain that if it's doable they will do it - what a wonder that would be with the 35 APO!

[viramati]

4 hours ago, Smogg said:

Electronic contacts are not required for this. For example, focus confirmation and eye detection work with this adapter.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

even my Nikon DSLR D90 which I bought in 2008 would give manual focus confirmation on the centre spot with a little red dot in the view finder. I don't know how they did it and if it was only with there AF lenses but it worked

[pgk]

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One thought that comes to mind is that if the M-EV1 works in its intended ways then it shows that a more compact body is a sellable product. So it might be possible to produce a simplied SL body of M size but SL specifications, with the ability to use M lenses via an adapter. Like the M-EV1 this could be a compromise but would compliment the M-EV1 whilst enabling far more moder functionality. It would obviously not appeal to those to whom an adapter is heresy, but it might to newcomers to the M world via the M-EV1.

[ynp]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

First of all - thank you! it was a bit of an effort!

I take your point with respect to the rub - but I don't agree - I acknowledge the discussions over the years, but this is a toe in the water, and a reluctant one at that. Leica are not convinced that it will be a success (although actually it's beginning to look like it will be). Deep rethink there certainly has been, and it is still going on, but what they did not to is to jump on to one of the possible different approaches. The time to do that is when you are sure there is a market for it - if the M EV1 sells well then they can be pretty sure that there will be. In the meantime spending lots of money on R&D on this side project clearly wasn't a good idea. Trying to produce something good enough to challenge an optical rangefinder for manual focus is something a competitor might find worthwhile - but why would Leica? if it was a good competitor it would just cancel M11 sales.

As for the focusing conundrum - there are a few advantages with the M EV1 which will certainly make it a worthwhile addition for lots of users - and an alternative for some others - I've already had quite a lot of emails from people who have never bought a rangefinder . . . . but intend to buy this - now THAT is something Leica will like to hear. Installing CDAF would be a real backward step - it isn't very good for manual focus confirmation anyway, but it would still need new hardware and software in the camera. 

As for your downright pessimism - why on earth would they stop making the Viso for M cameras with optical rangefinders? I don't think they needed to make a statement, they would be mad to stop (after all it doesn't need any new technology). Of course I don't know everything, but I do know that they are absolutely and fundamentally committed to the development of the M camera - they are full of ideas which they investigate thoroughly- the future of your M/Viso combination is bright indeed! 

Incidentally - Have you read this interview? ( https://chatsphotog.com/musings/f/stefan-daniel-on-the-leica-m-ev1 ) - it might make you feel a bit better!

All the best

Jono

Thanks for the link to the interview,!

One question for you: will the new camera tether to a computer or IPad? For me this EV1 is interesting as a lightweight digital back to my view cameras. 

Thank you!

evgeny

[ahl]

Hello Jono,

Thank you for your usual comprehensive and well balanced review. I am now nearly 80 and gave up my M240 a few years ago, when my failing eyesight made using the rangefinder relatively unpleasant and I realised that my handholding was then not as good as I thought. I therefore went to an SL2 for the viewfinder and IBIS. That, with my M lenses was just about perfect. If an M EV1 had been available then, it probably would have been my choice, but now I am really happy with the SL2 and enjoy all its advantages. I often shoot singers in a jazz club and could never use my Noctilux 1.0 wider than F2. The SL2 has given me so many more choices, and have found the focus peaking totally acceptable after some experimentation with its settings. With M lenses the weight and balance of the SL2 work out really well.

As an aside concerning cataract ops, being a retired hospital doctor, I had mine done one at time, as soon as night driving became a worry because of glare. What a transformation! For the first time in my life I had great distance vision and colours became so much more vivid, I had to change my photo workflow. I still get some glare but it is not much of a problem anymore. There is little point delaying the op if it is recommended by a trusted surgeon.  Kind regards,  Alan

[charlesphoto99]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Because that would exclude all those young people who fancy an M but don't want a rangefinder . . . .

Who are all these young people with a spare $9k burning in their pockets? If they want to shoot their $200 TTartisan lenses, there are much more affordable alternatives. 

[CDodkin]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I don't think the magenta tint is variable - with a single colour temperature and tint the colours won't vary. . . . . of course the result or visibility might vary based on the subject. But you out to be able to completely fix your issue using the new offset tool, better than that you can save different offsets in different user profiles if you so wish, maybe a different one for cloudy days? I still think the blue skies of the M11 sensor are nearer to reality than any other camera I've seen (always too cyan). 

I think it's a great tool which lots of people will like. Better still you can experiment with the tint in Lightroom until you find what you want, and then you can easily transfer that back to the camera.

Based on using a WB transmission target to set WB in camera, the Magenta tint offset varies by lighting conditions - which makes fixed offsets just an approximation - maybe better than the current AWB or daylight, but still not accurate. It'll be interesting to test when I get the M EV1. Thanks.

[ynp]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Who are all these young people with a spare $9k burning in their pockets? If they want to shoot their $200 TTartisan lenses, there are much more affordable alternatives. 

Yesterday , in Bangkok , I saw a young western man with an X Hasselbad. He and his GF stayed at à hotel where $9k will buy you only three nights. I will try to ask him what he’s doing for living at the breakfast tomorrow. 😜

[microview]

2 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Lovely images Jono. There’s something about them that seems different. I can’t quite put my finger on what. It’s a technical difference rather than artistic - your images are quite recognisable! There’s a sharpness or level of detail that feels different. 
 

Would I buy this? Only if I really really wanted to use exotic things like the 90 f1.5 etc

 I think I’d probably prefer a Q3 43.

 However, I very much like my M11-P Safari. If I happened to find enough money down the back of the sofa to spend this much, I’d re-acquire the 35 Apo. 

I believe you are saying that you thought Jono's pics had something new and extremely attractive. Same here, but as sensor and processor are the same as with the M11P there should be no differences.

(Like you, I recently fell for the Safari M! and love it to bits!)

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I assume it has PDAF.

I have no idea.  A quick search suggests that the Autofocus Sensor Module pre-dated PDAF.  It was a cool system, with red left and right arrows, and a green spot.  Focal point was set using a button on the back of the camera. 

[jonoslack]

46 minutes ago, ahl said:

Hello Jono,

Thank you for your usual comprehensive and well balanced review. I am now nearly 80 and gave up my M240 a few years ago, when my failing eyesight made using the rangefinder relatively unpleasant and I realised that my handholding was then not as good as I thought. I therefore went to an SL2 for the viewfinder and IBIS. That, with my M lenses was just about perfect. If an M EV1 had been available then, it probably would have been my choice, but now I am really happy with the SL2 and enjoy all its advantages. I often shoot singers in a jazz club and could never use my Noctilux 1.0 wider than F2. The SL2 has given me so many more choices, and have found the focus peaking totally acceptable after some experimentation with its settings. With M lenses the weight and balance of the SL2 work out really well.

As an aside concerning cataract ops, being a retired hospital doctor, I had mine done one at time, as soon as night driving became a worry because of glare. What a transformation! For the first time in my life I had great distance vision and colours became so much more vivid, I had to change my photo workflow. I still get some glare but it is not much of a problem anymore. There is little point delaying the op if it is recommended by a trusted surgeon.  Kind regards,  Alan

Hi There

Thank you for that - if you are comfortable with the SL2, I think the addition of IBIS is more than reason for keeping it.

Thanks for the cataracts comments as well - mine aren't very advanced, but as you say, little point in delaying.

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

32 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Who are all these young people with a spare $9k burning in their pockets? If they want to shoot their $200 TTartisan lenses, there are much more affordable alternatives. 

You might be surprised - especially in the far east, it's a large and expanding market and certainly a consideration for this camera - I'm quite sure Lieca have done their homework on this, and it's surprising how many  30 somethings have the money for this sort of thing (just go to one of the LSI meetings!)

best

 

[jonoslack]

54 minutes ago, ynp said:

Thanks for the link to the interview,!

One question for you: will the new camera tether to a computer or IPad? For me this EV1 is interesting as a lightweight digital back to my view cameras. 

Thank you!

evgeny

Hi There Evfeny

Yes - you can shoot it remotely using FOTOS on an iPad - it seems to me to work pretty well, but of course you can't focus it remotely!

best

[charlesphoto99]

7 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

You might be surprised - especially in the far east, it's a large and expanding market and certainly a consideration for this camera - I'm quite sure Lieca have done their homework on this, and it's surprising how many  30 somethings have the money for this sort of thing (just go to one of the LSI meetings!)

best

 

Obviously none of them have an occupation known as 'photographer.' 😂

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pgk]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Obviously none of them have an occupation known as 'photographer.' 😂

In all seriousness, the M-EV1 IS, clearly, an amateur camera. I cannot see any professional photographers requiring such a camera. The concept may sell but it will not do Leica's reputation any good in terms of being the makers of serious photographic equipment. Clearly though they are prepared to take this risk in order to sell cameras.

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, pgk said:

In all seriousness, the M-EV1 IS, clearly, an amateur camera. I cannot see any professional photographers requiring such a camera. The concept may sell but it will not do Leica's reputation any good in terms of being the makers of serious photographic equipment. Clearly though they are prepared to take this risk in order to sell cameras.

 I can see it being used by both wedding and travel photographers - I've done both with it, and whilst I wouldn't like to shoot a wedding JUST with an M EV1, it would certainly be useful for wide open shots - where focusing is very easy - possibly with a Noctilux. As for travel - it made a great kit with the WATE, 35 APO and 75 APO - nothing else needed and in some respects better than a rangefinder camera. 

I wouldn't want to use it for street and photojournalism though