Noise on the M11

[fenykepesz]

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vor 28 Minuten schrieb lct:

Congrats for your rock solid hands 👍 I must set shutter speeds to 1/(2f)s with the M11 personally and i know good colleagues here going up to 1/(3f)s or even 1/(4f)s. Not a problem per se but i must take my M240 or a Sony for speeds slower than 1/(1f)s. Strangely enough my Sigma FPL seems to do better than the M11 with the same lenses in spite of a similar sensor. The FPL has EIS instead of IBIS but i've been told EIS works in video only so i have no explanation.

regarding camera shake, i see three moving components, all located behind the RF window, that deserve to be looked at : tremor (neuro-muscular), breathing (pulmonary-skeletal) and heart beat (cardiac) : i just don't know how to control for that third factor in this list.  that's why i am waiting for my next M, an M12-D supposedly, equipped with a proper IBIS so i can snap away again at 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 - with good conscience, like in those good old grainy film days.  for now at least i seem to be using only those last 90° of my shutter speed dial...

Edited October 20 by fenykepesz

[Jamie Roberts]

1 hour ago, fenykepesz said:

regarding camera shake, i see three moving components, all located behind the RF window, that deserve to be looked at : tremor (neuro-muscular), breathing (pulmonary-skeletal) and heart beat (cardiac) : i just don't know how to control for that third factor in this list.  that's why i am waiting for my next M, an M12-D supposedly, equipped with a proper IBIS so i can snap away again at 1/125 1/60 1/30 1/15 - with good conscience, like in those good old grainy film days.  for now at least i seem to be using only those last 90° of my shutter speed dial...

I totally agree on this! 

So within reason, the "standard" way to slow (not "control" exactly) your heartbeat (and breath shake) is with breathing rhythm (full diaphragm inhale, slight pause at full, slower exhale). Many photographers I know press the shutter at the "top" of that cycle (at the pause) but I've found a squeeze at the bottom of the cycle to be nearly as stable. My understanding is that a few breath cycles like that also slows your heart a bit and lowers blood pressure temporarily, all of which can make you more steady when you squeeze the shutter.  

You probably know this, but you can also use mechanical means to steady your grip, even if you don't have a tripod / monopod handy.

If you use a strap, and live view, or don't mind zone focusing, you can pull the strap till it's fully extended by your reach and tense. That tension will make it easier to keep the camera steady (and you can shorten the strap by wrapping it around your hand). This way you're not bracing against your chest, and your breathing and heartrate are out of the picture (and even some tremors even out under tension).  

If I can, too, I'll lean (against a wall or tree) and brace with my elbows.

Admittedly all this takes time and practice, but the strap trick has saved me on occasion shooting events, though I always try to keep breathing steadily. 

But all of this is subject to luck when aging; I'm much less steady than I was 10 years ago for sure, though the tricks and training help. I would *love* IBIS on an M for slower shutters with longer lenses, which my other current mirrorless cams have.   

[fenykepesz]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Jamie Roberts:

I totally agree on this! 

So within reason, the "standard" way to slow (not "control" exactly) your heartbeat (and breath shake) is with breathing rhythm (full diaphragm inhale, slight pause at full, slower exhale). Many photographers I know press the shutter at the "top" of that cycle (at the pause) but I've found a squeeze at the bottom of the cycle to be nearly as stable. My understanding is that a few breath cycles like that also slows your heart a bit and lowers blood pressure temporarily, all of which can make you more steady when you squeeze the shutter.  

You probably know this, but you can also use mechanical means to steady your grip, even if you don't have a tripod / monopod handy.

If you use a strap, and live view, or don't mind zone focusing, you can pull the strap till it's fully extended by your reach and tense. That tension will make it easier to keep the camera steady (and you can shorten the strap by wrapping it around your hand). This way you're not bracing against your chest, and your breathing and heartrate are out of the picture (and even some tremors even out under tension).  

If I can, too, I'll lean (against a wall or tree) and brace with my elbows.

Admittedly all this takes time and practice, but the strap trick has saved me on occasion shooting events, though I always try to keep breathing steadily. 

But all of this is subject to luck when aging; I'm much less steady than I was 10 years ago for sure, though the tricks and training help. I would *love* IBIS on an M for slower shutters with longer lenses, which my other current mirrorless cams have.   

me too, i fully agree with all your comments @Jamie Roberts - we all try to 'control' all kind of disturbing factors - though the most difficult one to tame is perhaps 'time & chance' itself, as unpredictable and sudden it can present a sujet which we then nervously try to capture in a fraction of a second leaving no time for 'slowing' down.  i guess those of us who are parents and photograph our children have a playground with plenty of sujets at home to practice on !  that's why IBIS IBIS IBIS, to control for motion at least at one end of the lens...

Edited October 20 by fenykepesz

[Chris W]

14 hours ago, fenykepesz said:

regarding camera shake, i see three moving components, all located behind the RF window, that deserve to be looked at : tremor (neuro-muscular), breathing (pulmonary-skeletal) and heart beat (cardiac) 

I don't have any of those. What does happen is the camera can micro-shake with the action of pressing the shutter button. M11 shutter is quite button is quite stiff.

This is why cable release  was invented.

I'm fully able to hold the camera still and stop breathing for a second.

[Chris W]

15 hours ago, Jamie Roberts said:

In my experience, the M11 is not worse than an M10 (or any high pixel camera). 

The M10 is 24mp while the M11 is 60mp, so I DO think there is a difference.

At the normal (zoomed out) viewing distance I can see my M10 frames are clean and sharp, whereas my (noisy) M11 images already look fuzzy and slightly blotchy. I only zoomed in 100% to confirm.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, Chris W said:

The M10 is 24mp while the M11 is 60mp, so I DO think there is a difference.

At the normal (zoomed out) viewing distance I can see my M10 frames are clean and sharp, whereas my (noisy) M11 images already look fuzzy and slightly blotchy. I only zoomed in 100% to confirm.

There should be no difference when comparing at the same output size (same resolution). However, we mostly want to have the sharpness at 100% and thus use faster shutter speeds than with lower resolution sensors.

[thierry40]

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16 hours ago, Jamie Roberts said:

So within reason, the "standard" way to slow (not "control" exactly) your heartbeat (and breath shake) is with breathing rhythm (full diaphragm inhale, slight pause at full, slower exhale). Many photographers I know press the shutter at the "top" of that cycle (at the pause) but I've found a squeeze at the bottom of the cycle to be nearly as stable. My understanding is that a few breath cycles like that also slows your heart a bit and lowers blood pressure temporarily, all of which can make you more steady when you squeeze the shutter. 

What you describe here is the breathing technique recommended for shooting firearms with precision too, which is comparable. It’s very interesting to watch biathlon in that respect. How skiers act as they breathe just after a tremendous effort to minimise shaking and release shot. 

Edited October 21 by thierry40

[thierry40]

3 minutes ago, thierry40 said:

What you describe here is the breathing technique recommended for shooting firearms with precision too, which is comparable. It’s very interesting to watch biathlon in that respect. How skiers act as they breathe just after a tremendous effort to minimise shaking. 

There is also a thing with the finger to practice which is similar with pressing a trigger, the hand holds firmly the camera (as for a rifle) and only the last two falangeaks (if this is the right word ?) must move without interfering and pressing the rest of the hand / fingers 

[Viv]

On 10/19/2025 at 11:25 AM, Chris W said:

So far, my M11 images shot at 6400 are quite badly noisy. I presume this is a function of the larger sensor.

I've shot at two of the DNG quality settings and both are equally noisy.

Not my experience.

[thierry40]

9 minutes ago, Viv said:

Not my experience.

Neither mine and if so then the noise can be reduced in post very efficiently 

[Chris W]

1 hour ago, Viv said:

Not my experience.

I posted examples. It's still there when given enough light, but more obvious in shots that are under exposed.

[kiwidad]

On 10/19/2025 at 6:22 AM, Chris W said:

I see equal noise in both 36 and 60.

I'm not massively pixel peeping, but zoomed into 100% most of my images are very clean, whereas 6400 test shots are obviously noisy.

Viewing zoomed to 100% is pixel peeping! Normal viewing size from a normal distance is nothing like that!
I think Leica foresaw the future many years ago when they published recommended viewing distances for given size and focal lengths

[kiwidad]

On 10/20/2025 at 7:26 AM, Chris W said:

M11 6400, not zoomed in, a little bit of processing. I'm ok with the level of noise below.

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What lens and shutter speed and aperture? Picture seems not quite in focus to me? 

[kiwidad]

17 hours ago, Chris W said:

The M10 is 24mp while the M11 is 60mp, so I DO think there is a difference.

At the normal (zoomed out) viewing distance I can see my M10 frames are clean and sharp, whereas my (noisy) M11 images already look fuzzy and slightly blotchy. I only zoomed in 100% to confirm.

You’re describing camera shake! My m11 is much more sensitive than my m10 was. Also much more unhappy if underexposed than I thought the m10 was. I don’t recall you mentioning what you shot with but did mention f3 or thereabouts… the kangaroo seems very soft to me and I think that contributes to the “noisy look. 
 

[Chris W]

The M11 kangaroo looks sharp to me. As I said, at around f3.5 and the distance I had to shoot from, the focus plane is very narrow. The end of the tail is out of focus while the feet are in.

The softer kangaroo was shot with the SL2-S where I used focus peaking. I find focus peaking is not accurate enough a lot of the time.

Edited October 22 by Chris W

[pgh]

On 10/20/2025 at 5:15 AM, Chris W said:

I thought it was advised to stay around 250th shutter speed to avoid blurred images on the M11. I like to be around f2.8 or f3.6 on aperture and try to avoid difficult focusing on F1.4 to f1.8. So getting a correct exposure at ISO6400 or below is going to be almost impossible.

This is precisely why I feel the m11 noise/sensor traits are overblown for many real world situations. Sunny day - yep, absolutely better. Diminished light of any kind (typically a comfortable domain for how Ms were designed) ? You’ll need a faster shutter than an m10 series in most situations and that means your iso 1600 on m10 is now 3200 on m11 (at least) and would you rather have a cleaner 24mp or noisier 3200? Even if you choose the latter at the very least it’s all of a sudden not a massive gain in real print resolving power. 

Edited October 22 by pgh

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, pgh said:

This is precisely why I feel the m11 noise/sensor traits are overblown for many real world situations. Sunny day - yep, absolutely better. Diminished light of any kind (typically a comfortable domain for how Ms were designed) ? You’ll need a faster shutter than an m10 series in most situations and that means your iso 1600 on m10 is now 3200 on m11 (at least) and would you rather have a cleaner 24mp or noisier 3200? Even if you choose the latter at the very least it’s all of a sudden not a massive gain in real print resolving power. 

I assume you can always switch the M11 to a low-resolution (18MP) mode with a slower shutter speed or use it as a high-resolution, faster-shutter-speed camera when the situation warrants it. I have never done that because the difference of one stop is not significant, especially after AI NR is applied.

[fenykepesz]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

I assume you can always switch the M11 to a low-resolution (18MP) mode with a slower shutter speed or use it as a high-resolution, faster-shutter-speed camera when the situation warrants it. I have never done that because the difference of one stop is not significant, especially after AI NR is applied.

i slowly get the feeling that these low-res low-noise sensor modes were introduced as a way out of this high-res camera shake dilemma.  Leica simply couldn't get the IBIS hardware fit into the M11 body - at that time at least...

[SrMi]

19 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

i slowly get the feeling that these low-res low-noise sensor modes were introduced as a way out of this high-res camera shake dilemma.  Leica simply couldn't get the IBIS hardware fit into the M11 body - at that time at least...

It is the same effect as when resizing in post.

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[Chris W]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I assume you can always switch the M11 to a low-resolution (18MP) mode with a slower shutter speed 

The noise level in my first test shots were the same in 60mp and 35mp. Often in lowlight you're already at the limit of slow shutter and shallow depth of field. I knew a higher megapixel sensor was not going to be better in low light, but I thought 6400 would still be pretty clean.

 

Edited October 22 by Chris W
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