Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #141 Posted September 21 Advertisement (gone after registration) The first appearance of the 35mm Perutz Fliegerfilm in the Leitz catalogue of November 1926. Curt Emmermann (January 1928) observes that Leitz is acting as an agent for the 35mm cine negative films by Agfa and Perutz. A similar 35mm cine negative film produced by Gevaert could not be obtained via Leitz. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5866186'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 21 Posted September 21 Hi Roland Zwiers, Take a look here The second miniature revolution. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #142 Posted September 21 High quality cine negative film in 1928 In 1926 with appearance of the Perutz Fliegerfilm high quality Leica photography came within reach. In 1928 Leica literature this Perutz film is indeed regarded as the best possible Leica film. But the competition was not sitting on its hands. According to Gevaert historians, the Perutz leadership could be maintained for only one year. Indeed, in January 1928 Curt Emmermann mentions that the Gevaert film combines a higher speed with an even finer grain. The reason that Emmermann still prefers the Perutz Fliegerfilm has to do with its much better orthochromatic properties. A good example of the quality of 1928 cine negative film is a prize-winning Leica picture that was published in the American Annual 1929, see the next slide. It is not known what film was used. Note that the Leitz advertisement speaks of ‘standard cinema film’. Also note the fine grain and the good colour rendition of the dark brown hair. This is proof of a highly orthochromatic film. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #143 Posted September 21 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5866189'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #144 Posted September 21 Discussion with the late Knut Kühn-Leitz on early Leica films When I approached Knut Kühn-Leitz (Leica-nobility indeed!) on this subject he was at first so kind as to listen to me. I pointed out that suitable Leica films were already produced in the late 1920s. Knut Kühn-Leitz disagreed and sent me the following quote by Dr Paul Wolff in the 1934 edition of “Meine Erfahrungen mit der Leica”: The translation in English reads as follows: “So, the grain was there! It was the be-all and end-all of us first Leica-users. Normal cine film in the Leica, at that time still weakly orthochromatic and not free from halation - it was a cross! Yes, postcard size pictures were just possible, not really inspiring, but one already walked around with the idea that one day it might be different.” Knut Kühn-Leitz referred to the common wisdom that Dr Paul Wolff only embarked on Leica photography after 1926. And so, he inferred that the films that were available in the late 1920s must still have been of poor quality. I replied that this quote must refer to the period 1923-1924 instead. In this period Dr Paul Wolff must have had a prototype Leica on loan from Oskar Barnack. In this period the available cine negative films on the German market were indeed of poor quality for Leica photography. This is moreover confirmed by Null-Serie user Prof. Klute, see the contributions by Alan. And it is also evident from a 1924 (prototype) Leica picture made by Dr Paul Wolff himself, see the next slide. Unfortunately, Knut Kühn-Leitz was unconvinced. He did not want to talk to me anymore, but was still so kind as to introduce me to his co-author Ulf Richter. Since then, I have come to know Ulf as a giant. We do not always agree, but we have frequently shared and discussed information on early Leica history in a friendly and respectful way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #145 Posted September 21 The poor quality of 35mm cine negative film in 1924. Dr Paul Wolff published this picture in 1939 so as to demonstrate the progress that he had made with Leica photography in the course of 15 years. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5866193'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #146 Posted September 21 Does new research based on overlooked primary sources have added value? Is verification of common wisdom a no-go area? Isn’t an independent reality check long overdue? My research on the development of the Leica did not start with post-1950 Leica literature at all. Instead, I studied pre-1945 and pre-1918 literature, also with a view on the development of the miniature camera in general (the first and second miniature revolutions). But when I compared my findings with post-1950 Leica literature, I found several instances where fact and fiction were not clearly separated. I hoped that my findings would be of interest to the editors of Leica magazines. Unfortunately, this was not always the case. Despite several attempts in the past three years, I have not been able to land one of my contributions in Vidom. When we had an opportunity to meet in person, the editor of Vidom rejected my working hypothesis approach on ‘100 Years Null-Serie’. He used the word ‘speculation’ every other sentence. When I objected to this qualification he replied: ’30 years of Leica literature cannot be wrong!’. If he is right, then verification of common wisdom is a no-go area. On the other hand, unverified legends may well distort our understanding of the development of the miniature camera. Isn’t an independent reality check long overdue? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted September 21 Author Share #147 Posted September 21 Advertisement (gone after registration) William, You are well aware of my travails. You are also well connected with Wetzlar. Is it possible that as President of LSI you can form a bridge? So as to facilitate independent research based on a scientific approach? Roland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted September 21 Share #148 Posted September 21 (edited) 13 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said: n this way I have invited William several times to disprove a working hypothesis on the basis of his extensive knowledge of post-1950 Leica literature. So far Willliam has not been able to do so! He (ultimately) agreed with me all the time. I'm not sure what this means. I agree with most of what you say, although, occasionally, I have looked for proof to support your conclusions. I am not sure what 'post -1950 Leica literature' means - produced after that time or relating to cameras made after that time? If the latter, there are people here who know a lot more about 1950s Leicas than I do e.g. Luigi Bertolotti. My main interest is in cameras produced up to about 1935. I believe that I introduced you to Ulf Richter in October 2023. Ulf is lively and has his own views on many matters. I recall him having a lively 'discussion' with Jim Lager. Nevertheless, I use his book (as translated by the late Rolf Fricke) a lot. I did not know Knut Kuhn Leitz, but some people that I know knew him e.g. Bill Rosauer and Frank Dabba Smith. I know nothing about his views on early 35mm film stock. I introduced you to Mark Osterman, formerly of Eastman House, who knows a lot about early film and has recently created some rolls which have the same characteristics as those produced in the 1920s. He is testing those in a Leica I Model A from 1928. I have been very busy lately, having given talks over the past 2 weeks; 1. on a collection of 5.5 million photographs for the National Library of Ireland and 2. on early colour photography for the International Early Colour Group, which includes researchers from major museums and universities - Vogel and the orthochromatic to panchromatic transition featured in that and I have now got some ex Kodak contacts to consult with when I can find the time. I am also involved with getting ready for the LSI Conference in Montreal in October and in various matters relating to my assuming the Presidency of that society. I may go to Wetzlar over the Winter, but I have nothing planned for the time being. As you know, one thing I am interested in is the Anastigmat-Elmax-Elmar transition and I have discussed that with Peter Karbe. That would probably be on my list of things to look at. William Edited September 21 by willeica 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 13 Author Share #149 Posted October 13 William, Thank you so much for your constructive reply. I have been very busy as well. You can find my contribution to the Barnack competition on another page. For the Annual Meeting of PCCGB I prepared a presentation on Leica-Rollei (Barnack-Heidecke) in the period 1910-1960. After the presentation I will first deal with the comments; after that I will share the slides on this Forum. When I refer to post-1950 Leica literature in the context of this thread (and 100 years Null-Serie) then I refer to the literature about the early development of the Leica. The crucial period for me is 1902 (Oskar Barnack begins his work at Zeiss Palmos) up to 1939 (Dr Paul Wolff agrees that regular black-and-white film is good enough for Leica photography in the majority of cases). The good thing about our discussion is that you agree on the merits of the working hypothesis approach. Based on this approach your observation: "I have looked for proof to support your conclusions" is not up to the mark. All the proof that I can find is already specified. It is part and parcel of the alternative working hypothesis! In this sense one can also not speak of 'my conclusions'. Simply because in the working hyporthesis approach one cannot prove. No one can be 100% sure about events that took place 100 years ago. Not even after 100 visits to Wetzlar. But then again, common wisdom in post-1950 Leica literature (so on the early development of the Leica) is frequently ill-founded. For a level playing field one would wish that common wisdom would be presented in the form of working hypotheses as well. For example: Working hypothesis 1: Oskar Barnack originated the concept 'small negative, big print' in 1905 because of his heavy 13x18 outfit. This is common wisdom indeed. But in the working hypothesis approach someone must be willing to present the available supportive information in a plausible way. [And accept criticism when the supportive information is not really convincing.] Working hypothesis 2: In 1913 Perutz started production of perforated 35mm cine negative film. Perutz made this 35mm film available with a Flieger emulsion so that it could be tested in the Null-Serie of 1923. This storyline can be found time and again in post-1950 Leica (and Perutz) literature. But so far there has been no supportive information that make this a plausible working hypothesis. These two common wisdoms suffice to make my point. For a scientific approach we need to be transparant on the available information. When common wisdom is beyond verification, then one is not allowed to separate fact and fiction in Leica literature as well. For a scientific approach we also need to have access to the all the information that we can find. Especially when it is located in Wetzlar. In this respect you can still play an important facilitating role. Roland ' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmans Posted October 15 Share #150 Posted October 15 On 9/21/2025 at 3:18 AM, Roland Zwiers said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I have enlarged larger than that. I know I just did a few enlargements over the summer at 18x24 or 20x24...so spot on with that advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmans Posted October 15 Share #151 Posted October 15 On 9/21/2025 at 3:22 AM, Roland Zwiers said: The poor quality of 35mm cine negative film in 1924. Dr Paul Wolff published this picture in 1939 so as to demonstrate the progress that he had made with Leica photography in the course of 15 years. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The term and understandment of the term QUALITY is defined by individuals. How much noise or even scratches or shadow depths etc etc...lack of sharpness etc... all of that is per individual tastes. Now looking at this photo above...I love it.... But I can guarantee you that if I take this photo into my photography club (they are no longer a camera club), that most of the people will turn away from it as it would be a waste of time to print and how enlarged in some type of 'travelogue' presentation on the big screen. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 15 Share #152 Posted October 15 On 10/13/2025 at 8:02 PM, Roland Zwiers said: No one can be 100% sure about events that took place 100 years ago. Not even after 100 visits to Wetzlar. I agree 100% with this. On 10/13/2025 at 8:02 PM, Roland Zwiers said: Oskar Barnack originated the concept 'small negative, big print' in 1905 because of his heavy 13x18 outfit. This is common wisdom indeed. But in the working hypothesis approach someone must be willing to present the available supportive information in a plausible way. [And accept criticism when the supportive information is not really convincing.] He still had another 5 or 6 years to go with Zeiss in 1905, so, if there is evidence, it may lie there On 10/13/2025 at 8:02 PM, Roland Zwiers said: In 1913 Perutz started production of perforated 35mm cine negative film. Perutz made this 35mm film available with a Flieger emulsion so that it could be tested in the Null-Serie of 1923. This storyline can be found time and again in post-1950 Leica (and Perutz) literature. But so far there has been no supportive information that make this a plausible working hypothesis. I believe I sent you a link to one of main online sources on Perutz film, but I don't recall it going back to pre 1923. I don't have any other information on early Perutz 35mm film. On 10/13/2025 at 8:02 PM, Roland Zwiers said: For a scientific approach we also need to have access to the all the information that we can find. Especially when it is located in Wetzlar. In this respect you can still play an important facilitating role. I hope to visit Wetzlar in the not too distant future and I will ask you for a list when I am going. On 10/13/2025 at 8:02 PM, Roland Zwiers said: For the Annual Meeting of PCCGB I prepared a presentation on Leica-Rollei (Barnack-Heidecke) in the period 1910-1960. After the presentation I will first deal with the comments; after that I will share the slides on this Forum. I'm sorry I won't be there, but I cannot be in two places at once. PCCGB is a great organisation. I have just finished doing a chapter on Victorian Darkrooms for the club's 50th Anniversary book. Give everyone there my best regards. William 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 23 Author Share #153 Posted October 23 Sorry that I could not reply earlier to all these interesting comments. I am now waiting for the train from London to Bradford, where I will give my research presentation on Leica - Rollei (Oskar Barnack - Reinhold Heidecke) in the period 1910-1960. This Leica-Rollei comparison has several points in common with the discussions on the first and second miniature revolutions. So next week, I will share my presentation slides with this Forum as well. I fully agree that the quality of an enlargement also depends on subjective judgement. E.G. for the Barnack competition 'On foot ' I could chose maximum detail or a more impressionistic approach. For maximum detail I could have used a highly corrected anastigmatic lens. (All Leica lenses are suitable in this respect). For an impressionistic touch I would take other directions. So a Leica Thambar lens, a regular Leica lens with a Duto or Softar filter, a regular Leica lens but slightly out of focus, etc. Since I don't have the Thambar, but a pre-war Imagon I settled for the latter. Again, whether the result is better or worse than a highly corrected anastigmatic lens is a matter of taste. But I feel that Dr Paul Wolff did not refer to this subjective quality dimension when criticizing the quality of early Leica films in the period 1923-1924. For him at first it was important that he could make a proper enlargement without disturbing grain. One would say that the arrival of the Perutz Fliegerfilm by November 1926 would have made him very happy. But this was not the case. Other Leica photographers like Curt Emmermann would immediately embrace the Perutz Fliegerfilm for it's fine grain and high orthochromatic properties. Leica publicity in 1928 does the same. Dr Paul Wolff admits that he uses this film many years as well (so presumably during 1926-1931 or so), but that he still considered this film unsuitable for big enlargements. This has been the subject for a separate article in the British Leica Society Magazine. The problem was not the grain as such, but the unsuitability of the Perutz Fliegerfilm to bridge extreme contrasts between dark and light. So Dr Paul Wolff continued his search for the 'ideal' Leica film in terms of grain, contrast and ortochromatism. Around 1931 he found an alternative approach based on highly sensitive panchromatic cine negative film that he would submit to over-exposure and under-developnent. Note that Dr Paul Wolff's alternative approach was not welcomed by Curt Emmermann, the editor of Die Leica. Curt Emmermann kept recommending fine grain steep-gradation Leica films like the Perutz Fliegerfilm and it's several successors. (After 1927 or so several producers would produce such fine-grainfilms). Emmermann admitted that the steep gradation was less suitable for amateur use. But even so, with soft development, one could bend these films to one' s requirements. Dr Paul Wolff did not agree to this Curt Emmermann observation. He made clear that he tried everything with this Perutz Fliegerfilm, but to no avail... This Dr Paul Wolff - Curt Emmermann dispute clearly shows the role of personal judgements when one deals with the quality of early Leica films in terms of the enlargements that are possible with them. Fritz Vith, another early Leica photographers, has another contribution to this subject. That will have to wait till I am home again. Roland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #154 Posted October 31 Leica-Rollei/ Barnack-Heidecke 1910-1960 Last Sunday I was invited to give a presentation to the Annual Meeting of PCCGB. [Photographic Collectors' Club of Great Britain] As the subject directly relates to the Second Miniature Revolution, I will post the 48 slides below. I realise that 48 slides is a lot to swallow. On the other hand, posting the slided individually has advantage that each slide can be discussed separately. This may lower the threshhold for follow-up discussions. Roland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #155 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886097'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #156 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886098'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #157 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886099'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #158 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886100'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #159 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886101'>More sharing options...
Roland Zwiers Posted October 31 Author Share #160 Posted October 31 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/423562-the-second-miniature-revolution/?do=findComment&comment=5886102'>More sharing options...
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