Giuliobigazzi Posted July 9 Share #1 Posted July 9 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Leica II has a fascinating origin story—one that involves, in a sense, two “first” serial numbers. Initially, in January 1932, serial number 72000 was designated as the starting point. However, due to the camera’s early success, additional serial numbers for unassembled IC’s were added. (My research tells me that 71500-72000 were added in March 1932, and 71200-71500 in April 1932). Ultimately making 71200 the first official Leica II. This is Leica 72044, one of the earliest units off the production line, equipped with the flat latch for the leitz-Agfa kassetten. Delivered to Berlin on 1.2.32 as LYDUP+KAZWO, code for camera plus two additional cassettes. If you look closely, you’ll notice that the spacing and size of the engraving also differs slightly, which swiftly changed after a couple of hundred models. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 7 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/422951-an-early-production-leica-ii/?do=findComment&comment=5830989'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 9 Posted July 9 Hi Giuliobigazzi, Take a look here An early production Leica II. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
UliWer Posted July 9 Share #2 Posted July 9 Thank you for showing this camera! The entries in the delivery register are interesting as well. There is also the "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen, Leitz Montage I" resissued by the German Leica Historica e.V. as "Vidom Spezial" 10/2010. The entry Nr. 16 in this diary reads (my translation): "71200 from August 1931 production of the new camera with automatic coupling of the rangefinder with the lens. Model II. The next Nr. 17 in the diary is: "71225 - 71249 - These numbers were delivered to England without coupling." Nr. 18: "ca 75000 - Early March 1932 introduction of mounts for the eyepiece to inscrew correction lenses." If we look at the delivery register there is the remark in red with a X in red to indicate "cameras with old viewfinder lens". So is the "old viewfinder lens" the mount without the possibility to inscrew a correction lens mentioned in the diary? Your No. 72044 shouldn't have the "new mount" if it wasn't changed. Or was it really the lens which was changed from approximately No. 75000 onwards? The delivery register also makes a point of mentioning the coupling ("Kupp" or "m. Kupp") - even though all new II models should have this feature. But for No. 72003 there is a remark "oK" which I read "ohne Kupplung". The "Diary" expressly mentions a delivery to England "without coupling". I can't guess any reason for producing such a model II without coupling or on the customer's side for asking for it. It is strange that the Nrs 72001 and 72002 are described as "Leane" in the delivery register - i.e. the codeword for the Ic delivered with Elmar and one film magazine. The codeword for the Model II was LYKAN, LYKUP or LYHEK. So after all it could be that the early II models were originally built as a "Leane" - i.e. as a Ic - and then "upgraded" to a II ("Kupp") before they were delivered, but some Nos. were not "upgraded" and remained Ic "Leane" without coupling? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 9 Share #3 Posted July 9 12 minutes ago, UliWer said: But for No. 72003 there is a remark "oK" which I read "ohne Kupplung". I think my reading of "o.K." as "ohne Kupplung" is wrong. In an earlier thread this was already deciphered by you as "ohne Kassette" (without film cassette) which makes much more sense: Remains the strange delivery to London "ohne Kupplung" (without coupling). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 10 Author Share #4 Posted July 10 (edited) The deliveries 71225-71249 are delivered mainly to the US, with a few to the UK, Canada and Switzerland. On the register these are delivered as models ia and ic. I’ve seen two from this batch, both seem to have been upgraded in New York, based on the serial number font. My theory is that this batch were sent with parts to perform an upgrade away from the factory. Re the first few deliveries, it would seem like the codes hadn’t been decided yet, so the first few deliveries are listed as leane mit kupplung, leane kupp, leneukup, etc, then LYDUP before settling on LYKUP. 72001 has ‘Gestholen’ written in pencil.. Edited July 10 by Giuliobigazzi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted July 10 Share #5 Posted July 10 (edited) vor 10 Stunden schrieb UliWer: So after all it could be that the early II models were originally built as a "Leane" - i.e. as a Ic - and then "upgraded" to a II ("Kupp") before they were delivered, very interesting aspect. I had a chance to inspect (dismantle) some of early IIs and found, that the cameras deliverd until (at least) 25.04.1932 have major part (top plate or Kameraboden in German) produced for IC and then modified to accomodate rangefinder and being delieverd as II. There is an article about it in VIDOM 126 from 2023 (Giulio, I believe that I shared draft with you). The highest SN that I found as such was 78559. Cameras delivered in June 1932 (and after) had top plate non-modified, produced as for II. As usual, exceptions are to be found - 71556 has already top plate from II, but delivery date for this camera is 9.06.1932. Photo attached show modified top plates: orange arrow shows serial where it was engraved for IC, now covered by rangefinder, and scratched serial where it is angraved for II. Blue arrow show holes needed for rangefinder, drilled after painting (notice brass shining on egde), green arrows show holes needed for IC but not needed anymore for II covered with blind screws now. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited July 10 by jerzy 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/422951-an-early-production-leica-ii/?do=findComment&comment=5831155'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 10 Share #6 Posted July 10 (edited) 12 hours ago, UliWer said: Thank you for showing this camera! The entries in the delivery register are interesting as well. There is also the "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen, Leitz Montage I" resissued by the German Leica Historica e.V. as "Vidom Spezial" 10/2010. The entry Nr. 16 in this diary reads (my translation): "71200 from August 1931 production of the new camera with automatic coupling of the rangefinder with the lens. Model II. The next Nr. 17 in the diary is: "71225 - 71249 - These numbers were delivered to England without coupling." Nr. 18: "ca 75000 - Early March 1932 introduction of mounts for the eyepiece to inscrew correction lenses." If we look at the delivery register there is the remark in red with a X in red to indicate "cameras with old viewfinder lens". So is the "old viewfinder lens" the mount without the possibility to inscrew a correction lens mentioned in the diary? Your No. 72044 shouldn't have the "new mount" if it wasn't changed. Or was it really the lens which was changed from approximately No. 75000 onwards? The delivery register also makes a point of mentioning the coupling ("Kupp" or "m. Kupp") - even though all new II models should have this feature. But for No. 72003 there is a remark "oK" which I read "ohne Kupplung". The "Diary" expressly mentions a delivery to England "without coupling". I can't guess any reason for producing such a model II without coupling or on the customer's side for asking for it. It is strange that the Nrs 72001 and 72002 are described as "Leane" in the delivery register - i.e. the codeword for the Ic delivered with Elmar and one film magazine. The codeword for the Model II was LYKAN, LYKUP or LYHEK. So after all it could be that the early II models were originally built as a "Leane" - i.e. as a Ic - and then "upgraded" to a II ("Kupp") before they were delivered, but some Nos. were not "upgraded" and remained Ic "Leane" without coupling? This just shows the need for more research on the registers. I have a memory of looking at the registers in Wetzlar for 1931 and 1932 and what was mainly I Mod Cs at first suddenly became all II Mod Ds. I was looking for camera which I have which had been delivered to Dublin via London in April 1932. It had a higher SN than cameras which were issued later. The overlap on numbers often arose because Leitz often pre-made body and other parts to meet later production demand and bodies were pre-stamped with serial numbers. If parts had been allocated to I Mod Cs it would not be surprising if II Mod Ds are misdescribed as regards code words. That is why research is needed. It is not that easy to go back over 90 years and speak with certainly about what was a developing situation. William Edited July 10 by willeica Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 10 Author Share #7 Posted July 10 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is certainly confusing.. I studied these pages at length and yes, it’s clear that it is mainly Leica II’s in 1932. The shipping dates show January/February for 72000+, March 71500+ and April 71200+, after that the numbers are a little more chronological. Knowing about these additions makes the seemingly random deliveries of that time make more sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photar Posted July 10 Share #8 Posted July 10 For a while, I collected early Leica II serial numbers and associated delivery dates. See below for a graphical representation (which includes a linear regression fit). The 19 data points include the cameras Jerzy mention in his very interesting vidom article, including my own 73432. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/422951-an-early-production-leica-ii/?do=findComment&comment=5831246'>More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 10 Author Share #9 Posted July 10 This is great! I might do the same to see a visual representation of 71200 to 73000. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photar Posted July 10 Share #10 Posted July 10 4 minutes ago, Giuliobigazzi said: I might do the same to see a visual representation of 71200 to 73000. If you stop at 73000, you will miss some very early deliveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 10 Author Share #11 Posted July 10 That’s true, it’s just that by then the serial numbers had normalised somewhat. I’ll try to extend the graph as much as I can! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shac Posted July 10 Share #12 Posted July 10 Photar - not sure if this is useful for your graph but my II (D) Ser No. 82905 The camera with the S.N. 82905 was delivered on 06/24/1932 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 10 Share #13 Posted July 10 (edited) 11 hours ago, Photar said: For a while, I collected early Leica II serial numbers and associated delivery dates. See below for a graphical representation (which includes a linear regression fit). The 19 data points include the cameras Jerzy mention in his very interesting vidom article, including my own 73432. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I don't know whether you have it, No 78952 was delivered on 25th April 1932. William Edited July 10 by willeica 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted July 11 Share #14 Posted July 11 I have 90246 and 63758 which was converted from a model 1 into a 11. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 13 Author Share #15 Posted July 13 On 7/10/2025 at 10:32 AM, willeica said: This just shows the need for more research on the registers. I have a memory of looking at the registers in Wetzlar for 1931 and 1932 and what was mainly I Mod Cs at first suddenly became all II Mod Ds. I was looking for camera which I have which had been delivered to Dublin via London in April 1932. It had a higher SN than cameras which were issued later. The overlap on numbers often arose because Leitz often pre-made body and other parts to meet later production demand and bodies were pre-stamped with serial numbers. If parts had been allocated to I Mod Cs it would not be surprising if II Mod Ds are misdescribed as regards code words. That is why research is needed. It is not that easy to go back over 90 years and speak with certainly about what was a developing situation. William The engraving book shows engraving of ‘boden’ (not top plates) on the following dates, unfortunately it doesn’t specify if these are IC or II chassis. Like you said, these bodies were all already in production way before their deliveries. The demand was so high that more and more of these bodies were used for the II. 70473-71793 3.6.31 71794-73023 24.6.31 Even if from 72000 the deliveries are more or less chronological, there are so many exceptions, some numbers must have remained unassigned for months, even years, then eventually used up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted July 13 Share #16 Posted July 13 vor 4 Stunden schrieb Giuliobigazzi: boden’ (not top plates Term Boden is used to name the top plate, so I would assume that they were engraved for IC. Later, before camera was assembled some were modified for II Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 13 Share #17 Posted July 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, Giuliobigazzi said: The engraving book shows engraving of ‘boden’ (not top plates) on the following dates, unfortunately it doesn’t specify if these are IC or II chassis. Like you said, these bodies were all already in production way before their deliveries. The demand was so high that more and more of these bodies were used for the II. 70473-71793 3.6.31 71794-73023 24.6.31 Even if from 72000 the deliveries are more or less chronological, there are so many exceptions, some numbers must have remained unassigned for months, even years, then eventually used up. These records could be studied to see what names and numbers were allocated and when this was done. There are cameras later than the one I have shown above which have lower numbers, probably due to recycling of numbers. My one is the second one from the top shown here. It would have been sent through London to Pollock in Dublin. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William Edited July 13 by willeica Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/422951-an-early-production-leica-ii/?do=findComment&comment=5832978'>More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 14 Author Share #18 Posted July 14 Here is a graph plotting serial numbers from my notes, that show the Leica II delivery progression. The red marks are the IC’s mentioned in the Montage, sent to mainly America where they got eventually upgraded. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/422951-an-early-production-leica-ii/?do=findComment&comment=5833293'>More sharing options...
PG Black nickel Posted July 14 Share #19 Posted July 14 My two Leica II: 72489 delivered on 2/2/1932 72715 delivered on ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuliobigazzi Posted July 14 Author Share #20 Posted July 14 (edited) 72715 on 3/2/1932 both cameras to Tiranty Paris Edited July 14 by Giuliobigazzi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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