Help identifying early "Leitz Elmar 1:3,5 F=3,5 cm" and where to CLA, etc.

[newguy]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello Leica experts. I have an early 30's Elmar inscribed exactly as I wrote in the thread title. The aperture markings are "3.5 4.5 6.3 9 12.5 18". I'm not a Leica person so all I know about it is from some interweb noodling and a conversation with a Leica acquaintance who hasn't actually seen the lens (just a few photos and verbal description). There is *definitely* no serial number on *any* external surface. 

I did find this thread for a somewhat similar lens which mentions someone who does CLA -

but for example who is (and how to contact) "Youxin Ye" mentioned in that thread? (Is this proof I'm not a Leica person?)

I would greatly appreciate help with -

- id: confirming date etc. or other factors I'm not aware of,

- leads for where to send (and ballpark cost if possible) for CLA,

The colour in the attached pics is misleading - the body is nickle plated brass: it's definitely not chrome and the mounting threads show glimpses of brass. It's in excellent cosmetic condition but to be functional needs CLA: the glass inside surfaces and especially the aperture diaphram (which is so stiff it is almost seized). The glas sis uncoated (and needs cleaning); there are about 5 micro specks/nicks in the front glass, but barely visible under magnification. Also 2 spots of fungus on the inside rear element.

As I mentioned I'm not a Leica person (I do mostly large-format); I'm not only unfamiliar but not looking to keep this. So pointers to where/how to find a good home for it would also be welcome (moderatores: my apologies as a new forum member if that's against the rules to mention.) Thanks for any and all info and suggestions,

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited April 13 by newguy
To remove request for guestimates about value (sorry, I'm new here).

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Welcome. The forum  does not allow valuations. But as this is a common lens you can use eBay, Collectiblend, etc. 
You can find a list of repair shops on the forum. 
it appears to be an early example but more knowledgeable members will chime in. 

[newguy]

Hi jaapv,

Thanks for the info. The first image is from/embedded in a different post I provided a link to; that is not my lens. The 5 photos I attached are my lens - there really is no serial number, I promise!

[jaapv]

Yes I saw Early lenses are regularly without serial number. 

[alan mcfall]

The earliest 35 elmar lenses were unnumbered, but also without rangefinder coupling and infinity lock. The very earliest has 3 digit match serials for non-standard camreas. For a short period of time, standardized and uncoupled lenses were made. Then serials started at 143,001.  This lens is before that, but is standardized ( see the "o" mark on the lens) and has what looks like a "flat top" infinity lock, and still before serials started. Appears to have the relatively early coupling rangefinder("heavy cam"). An early lens, but not the very earliest, likely early 1932.  It is possible that it was ungraded to its present form.

Further:

In the first 3-4 years for the 35 elmar there were may observable feature changes. changes for functionality, useability, marketing and manufacturing. And likely some internal changes also.

Serial numbers:   3 digit, none, 5 digit

Infinity  lock:  none, flat top, bell shaped, mushroom

Rangefinder  coupling: none, heavy cam, thin cam, possible different ramp patterns for different focusing ranges

Standardization: not standardized, yes with "O" mark on lens

Focus scales:  metric, english

Focus tab location:  11 o'clock then 7 o'clock (the model III had a slow speed dial)

Finish: first nickle later chrome

All these items did not occur separately or sequentially, but as and when needed.

Coupled with the possibilities of returning an early lens to the factory for "upgrading" of features, there can be many variations. It was common to return lenses for standardization. I do not believe that any unserialized or 3 digit lenses were given new 5 digit serials when standardized, they were just given the "o" mark. In rare cases, factory repair shop records would give some information. Otherwise, the best one can do is examine each subject lens and suggest a historical evolution. Leitz was an amazing and accomodating entity for customer service and giving a long life to their products.

 

Edited April 13 by alan mcfall
additional rambling

[newguy]

Thanks @alan mcfall for the info. That's a lot of variations! The infinity lock on my lens isn't truly flat - the circles on the top rise very slightly from the outer edge towards the middle, about 300 micron (0.3 mm) I would guestimate (I've put my calipers away and I'm feeling too lazy right now to go get them).

So my lens is: no serial number, standard, metric, nickel plated, heavy-cam rangefinder coupling, flat top infinity lock, 11 o'clock focus tab, which adds up to probably early 1932.

Other characteristics I've wondered about after scanning through hundreds of pictures online:

- my lens has "F=" while many images show "f=", and I never did see an example image that showed even most of the features on mine together also with "F" not "f". Is this relevant in any way?

- Also on markings, many online images show "Germany". I assume that was for the export market? Mine has no origin marked. Does this mean it was meant for the domestic market, or is this also irrelevant?

[luigi bertolotti]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, newguy said:

 

- my lens has "F=" while many images show "f=", and I never did see an example image that showed even most of the features on mine together also with "F" not "f". Is this relevant in any way?

- Also on markings, many online images show "Germany". I assume that was for the export market? Mine has no origin marked. Does this mean it was meant for the domestic market, or is this also irrelevant?

Your writing is another sign of a very early item : indeed "1 : 3,5   F = 3,5 cm" instead of "f = 3,5 cm    1 : 3,5" (*) can be found in the very first Elmars 3,5, to say in the unstandardized ones (probably all of them..examples in Lager) and in some of the first standardized : example in our Wiki : https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Elmar_f%3D_3.5_cm_1:3.5 , (the depicted is the interesting "short distance" version... and notice that focal is given as F = 35 mm,  not 3,5 cm  .. it is probably earlier than yours... also the unstandardized have mm and not cm ). Btw, the same modification of front writings  happened to Elmar 9 cm.

I think that a writing exactly like yours is really hard to find.

(*) the "f" letter even changed slightly its style during its life...  😉 , same on Elmar 5cm too...

Edited April 14 by luigi bertolotti

[jerzy]

as Alan mentioned, therer are few variants, as well in regard to mechanical construction:
1 - non-standard, uncoupled, 11 oclock
2 - standardized, coupled, heavy cam (cam sloped), 11 oclock
3- standardized, coupled , non-sloped cam, 7 oclock
4- as above, but chrome
There could be as well  versions in between, not shown here, like 1a - standartized, uncoupled, "F", "f", "f", cm, mm, etc

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Your lens is 11 oclock, standratized (1), coupled, heavy cam (3). I have impression that the button is flat (2). If this is so than it is a rare version, early 1932

f,F, cm, mm were used alternatively at certain time, to some degree they allow to determine production time, but not very precise. Below are lenses from almost the same period with different engravings



Back to yous lens - it has no serial so it was non standard, uncoupled. Approx late 1931/early 1932 it was converted to standartized and received 11 oclock mount with heavy cam.
This is what I can see

 

[luigi bertolotti]

I agree with the deep examination of Jerzy... putting together all the details (and the difficulty to find an identical item), is 99% probable that is a factory-modified lens... the great adventure of Leica was just starting, and factory made "upgrades" on order, without a formal standardization of the process (in due time, they standardized and even listed several upgrades) .

Anyway, a very interesting collectible... many of us like to have variations of the same lens, and would like to add it to their collection : you are new to this forum... take note that we have a "buy and sell" section (see "classified") 😉

Edited April 14 by luigi bertolotti

[newguy]

Alan, Luigi, jerzy, thank you for the in depth examination - and wow. I had no idea that tracing the early production history was so ... convoluted and perhaps even mysterious to sort out for a particular lens. As I said I'm not a Leica person, but it's fascinating; I'm going to have to be careful not to add to my already oversubscribed interests. Even though I'm retired, I already don't have the time for everything I want to do.

Also, thanks @luigi bertolotti for mentioning the "buy and sell" section. I will be digging out my digital macro setup and take better pictures and post it there. I'd be happy if it finds a happy home where it's appreciated, instead of languishing in a box in my back room along with the accumulated random assortment of lenses I have no use for, lens parts, and shutter components.

By the way, in my original post I mentioned that there are some dots of fungus on the inner surface of the rear element. I was wrong. From pictures and descriptions I've seen since starting this journey I now know it as "balsam separation", given the tiny dentritic structure. I'd never heard of that before. I suppose I'm lucky that nothing like that has appeared on any of my many older large and medium format lenses.

Cheers,

Al

Edited April 14 by newguy

[spydrxx]

You asked who Youxin Ye is. He is a well used camera repairperson located in Massachusetts. Google Yyecamera.com and you will find a full range of his services and prices. FWIW I've periodically used him for Leica M & Leica screwmount bodies as well as some other screwmount bodies. He is quick to respond to emails, and will let you know if he can help you.

[willeica]

On 4/14/2025 at 6:50 PM, newguy said:

Alan, Luigi, jerzy, thank you for the in depth examination - and wow. I had no idea that tracing the early production history was so ... convoluted and perhaps even mysterious to sort out for a particular lens.

Jerzy has astonishing knowledge of the early days and the frequent changes made to lenses. About 10 years ago he and I did a large piece of research, which we have not published, about the variations in the 50mm/5cm Elmar and we quickly found variations which had not been noted before. Working with Jerzy on this was a real education for me. It is the same with Alan and Luigi and all of the other knowledgeable contributors here.

The other big lesson is that for the first 10 years from 1925 to 1935 the Leica Camera and its lenses and accessories were under constant development at a frenetic pace led by Barnack and his team. If you look at the developments in digital cameras from 2015 to 2025 and compare those to the development of the Leica and its lenses and accessories from 1925 to 1935, you will see a far greater degree of development in the earlier period. If it were not for all that Barnack achieved before he passed away in 1936, we would not have any Leicas to discuss and use today.

William