Which M4?

[Henners]

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I'm looking to purchase an M4 and wondered what to look for when buying second hand? Which versions to look out for and any that are functionally 'better' that command a higher premium. I'm not especially looking for a limited edition version unless it has some additional useful functionality. I'm trying to figure out what 'version' to go for and then what money to part with for a decent example.

I'd probably be looking for an early version that's more hand made/less or no stamped parts. I've read that the earlier M4s are generally considered to be more hand built (i.e. less stamped parts etc). My knowledge is thin but hope that adds to the conversation a little.

Edited February 21 by Henners

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[ktmrider2]

Do you need the frame lines for 28/75?  The M4P has them.  Do you need a self timer?  The original M4 has one.  Do you need a motor drive?  Then the M4/2 or M4P.  Do you want the best viewfinder (non flaring)?  The M4/2 and M4P had a small condenser lens removed to save on cost.  This lens was later replaced in the MP/MA.  It can be replaced in the M4/2 and M4P by DAG and company during a routine service but why not get the M4 if that is a consideration ie original M4 had condenser lens in place.

I believe the original was made wholly of brass.  The M4/2 and M4P had zinc which made them lighter.  All three models were available in black chrome.  The original M4 was also available in chrome and black paint.  Original M4’s in black paint were going for over $10000 while the same camera in chrome was under $2000.  I am not sure if the M4/2 or M4P were made in chrome finish.  M4/2 and M4P had brass gears replaced with steel which allowed the use of a motor winder.  Some people hate the big red dot.

I shot with a black chrome mint 50th anniversary edition for ten years.  I sold it when I bought a MP about a year ago as I cannot justify two film bodies.  My preference would be an original M4  and I would probably get it in chrome unless you feel the need for a self timer, motor drive or 28/75 frame lines.  The 28 frame line is pretty worthless as it is hard to see and if you look at how close the 28 frame lines are to the edge of the finder, why not just use the whole finder for a really good approximation?  I have never owned a 75 so not an issue for me.  Additionally, Leica changed the size of the frame lines when they went from four (35/50/90/135) to six (28/35/50/75/90/135) and I hear complaints that the older frame lines were more accurate).  M4/2’s and M4P’s are newer as the original M4 was made from 1966-1975 (I think).  M4/2’s were introduced by Leica trying to recover from the M5 debacle and M4P’s are M6’s minus the meter.

If you buy from a good Leica dealer like Tamarkin or Classic Connections, they provide a great return policy.  I know Tamarkin’s ratings are cosmetic only and each camera has CLA before sold.  

Edited February 21 by ktmrider2

[TomB_tx]

I bought my M4 in 1968, so it is early. It's been a fine performer, with just one service (CLA) about 10 years ago. Then I bought an M6 in 1985, so also an early model of that. The only noticeable quality difference in the M6 was the more flare-prone (whiteout) RF patch that would only happen in some lighting conditions. It finally had a service a few years ago and I had the finder upgraded to fix the flare issue. Both have held up fine and are a joy to use. Yes, the M6 has the cast zinc top plate - so what? It still looks like new, as do my R series with zinc. 

Over the years I've added M2, M3, M5, M6.85, and M7 and I don't see any significant quality differences among them. The shutter button action necessarily has a different feel in the metered versions but I find that good, as it tells when the meter acts or you lock the exposure.

So just find an M that is in good shape and feels good to you.

[cesc]

classic M4 here. I have M4 and MP. I find the ISO dial in metal, and the 1/15th shutter sound of the M4 .... 1000 times better than the MP. It's just feeling, they both take the same bad photos.

[spydrxx]

In earlier posts I've told of my 30+ year love affair with a M4 I purchased in 1968. Sold several years ago and now working with an M2 and several Barnacks (great for nailing focus due to magnified image). Good luck in your quest and don't forget you may need a CLA sooner rather than later if it hasn't had one in many years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21 by spydrxx
kept inadvertantly hitting the spacebar

[LocalHero1953]

I looked for a M4-2 a couple of years ago because that was the new model when I first wanted to buy a Leica; there was no way I could afford it, so bought a M3. A M4 came available from a forum member, so I bought that instead, and I'm very happy with it.
But then I bought a new MP BP when the current M6 came out because I wanted a M with a different feel: black paint, different winder, rewind knob, shutter dial, built-in meter - and I'm very happy with that too.
Sadly I have also bought three Barnacks - iif, II Model D, and Standard - and I'm still happy with all of them.

Moral: there's always another Leica film camera with your name on it.

[oldwino]

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

.

Moral: there's always another Leica film camera with your name on it.

This is the Truth. 

[osaf]

Well, you can compare the (small) differences, speculate about possible variances in quality and weight "made in Germany" against "made in Canada" on emotional level. But we talk about cameras aged 40-60 years: At the end of the day the condition of the specific camera counts. So I would look for all types and take a decision based on the specific model offered to buy.

[davidmknoble]

My first Leica was a chrome M-4 and I shot many rolls of film with my kids at summer camp.  I sold it over the years and now have an M4-2.  Do note that some of those were brass (as is mine) and some have viewfinders replaced (mine has a current MP finder in it).

The real key is that if you get any M-4, that has had a recent CLA, and has cladding and body in great condition, you will have a super film camera that will likely last longer than you if taken care of properly.  I still use an M-3 with a summation 35mm f/2.8 with goggles and a rigid 50, all from early 1960.  This makes them over 60 years old and I’d expect them to work after I die.  Yet I can also use my APO 50 on the M3 (and have).

Buy a lens you really like and a nice copy of an M-4 and enjoy it!

IMHO.

[Henners]

Thank you all for your input, it's very helpful. I'm not too fussed about stamped vs non-stamped etc. It's more about the overall feel and functionality but I do like good engineering etc probably like most of us here, so the fact something is more hand made has some kind of emotional appeal that is basically worthless when it comes to actually owning and using the camera for it's intended purpose, but still... you know.. 

I own an M6 0.75 TTL and love it, the M4 and information about frame lines and timer etc is a very good point. I have no real need for the timer, I guess it could be nice just to have but potentially something that could malfunction and possibly not worth it for the one time I might use it. 

It sounds like I might be looking for an original M4 in chrome (I'd prefer black but not for 8k more), I'll check out the places recommended. Buying one from a dealer that's had a CLA in the last few years or so is probably the way to go. 

Edited February 22 by Henners

[Beemermark]

I've owned most every Leica film body camera.  I consider the M4 as being the best.  I would rate the M4-2 as the worse (most problematic) and the M4-P as Leica incorporating all the M4-2 to correct flaws found in that camera.  But what I have difficulty understanding is that the M4 is usually the cheapest in today's market.  If you can find an M4-P substantially cheaper than an M4 then buy it.

On thing rarely mentioned is that the M4 (like the Nikon F series) was made with every part being adjustable.  It was assumed that these cameras would be used by serious professionals that would shoot thousands of rolls a month and beat them to death.  They could be adjusted and repaired by Wetzler trained repairmen.  With the M4-2 (the market was changing) Leica decided that part assemblies, rather than be adjustable, could just be replaced.  Unfortunately, this means that an M4 CLA (or complete overhaul by DAG standards) costs around $500.  My M7 "overhaul" by DAG cost $180.

 

Edited February 23 by Beemermark

[Henners]

eBay is a bit of a minefield. I've just been looking through loads of listings and due to the age of these cameras it's hard to really know what you're looking at. Some have clearly had a bit of black paint to touch up areas that are likely very worn away which I suppose is reasonable if done by the owner while they owned it and not just for tarting it up for sale but it's hard to really know what you're buying.

There's a near mint one for 4000 euros, part of me is trying not to get caught up in lusting after a mint one for that kind of money but also as they're timeless classics I can't see it really losing value over time. If anything it would probably go up so might be an 'investment' argument there.

Ideally I'd pick up a good/excellent condition M4 (without box etc) for around £1200 I think. Does that seem reasonable? How much more for the original box and papers?

Where else is good to hunt one down?

If anyone has one for sale, DM me (assuming that's allowed of course)!

[BradS]

17 hours ago, Henners said:

eBay is a bit of a minefield.

Ideally I'd pick up a good/excellent condition M4 (without box etc) for around £1200 I think. Does that seem reasonable? How much more for the original box and papers?

Yes, eBay is just about the worst place to buy/sell a used Leica. It happens to be convenient but it is, as you say, a minefield (but sometimes you get lucky).   I'd strongly recommend ONLY buying from reputable retailers or known and trusted individuals. And as someone has already said above, these cameras are all 50~60+ years old now. The condition of the individual item will be MUCH more important than the relatively insignificant differences between models. 

To your second question, do you want to use the camera to take photos or are you a camera collector? Photographers don't care about the box & paperwork. I throw that stuff out with the recycling. I'm personally much more interested in whether the shutter speeds are accurate, rangefinder is accurate, contrasty, clear & bright and film advance is smooth and easy. I don't really even care much about cosmetic condition - though, I will NOT buy anything with even the slightest hint of corrosion.

Collectors of course want the box and papers. 

Either goal is fine and valid, but they are definitely competing goals. Just know what you want and why before slashing out a bunch of cash. 

[hansvons]

On 2/22/2025 at 4:21 PM, Henners said:

I own an M6 0.75 TTL and love it, the M4 and information about frame lines and timer etc is a very good point.

 

On 2/23/2025 at 4:02 AM, Beemermark said:

If you can find an M4-P substantially cheaper than an M4 then buy it.

That's what I did. I also own an M6, which I carry daily and takes 80% of the work (the meter DOES make sense). My M4-P is an early model with a bronze top plate and a slightly recessed viewfinder. The mechanics are as buttery as one can wish for. Super satisfying. That said, both cameras were freshly CLA-ed when I bought them. 

As you know, the M4-P is basically an M6 without the meter. That's a plus because I like to have a similar experience that isn't distracting me. Why not a second M6? The M4-P has a very subtle "single-action" trigger. With a soft release button and some training, you can shoot 35mm lenses down to 1/15 and lower without much camera shake. This is also highly advantageous for landscape work because I want my landscape shots at 1/50 to be impeccably tack-sharp, and the softer release makes all the difference here. 

[Henners]

6 hours ago, BradS said:

Yes, eBay is just about the worst place to buy/sell a used Leica. It happens to be convenient but it is, as you say, a minefield (but sometimes you get lucky).   I'd strongly recommend ONLY buying from reputable retailers or known and trusted individuals. And as someone has already said above, these cameras are all 50~60+ years old now. The condition of the individual item will be MUCH more important than the relatively insignificant differences between models. 

To your second question, do you want to use the camera to take photos or are you a camera collector? Photographers don't care about the box & paperwork. I throw that stuff out with the recycling. I'm personally much more interested in whether the shutter speeds are accurate, rangefinder is accurate, contrasty, clear & bright and film advance is smooth and easy. I don't really even care much about cosmetic condition - though, I will NOT buy anything with even the slightest hint of corrosion.

Collectors of course want the box and papers. 

Either goal is fine and valid, but they are definitely competing goals. Just know what you want and why before slashing out a bunch of cash. 

Fair points, thank you. I think I'll end up sitting between a shooter and a collector. It won't sit in a box and will come on some travels/outings with me. I mainly shoot an M11 and Ricoh GR3 / GR3x and I do like the metering in the M6. The M4 appeals because I love Leica cameras and want to own a few bodies. Maybe an M3 at some point too. So, I'm a photographer firstly, my cameras are tools but I appreciate the engineering and experience of the older bodies so will enjoy shooting some street and travel with it.

I'm lucky that I live near Leica Manchester in the UK, they have a great reputation and I've been in a few times and had chats with them, so I may just hold off until they get something that matches what I'm after; or someone on the forums sees my wanted advert here (

).

I think I'll just ignore ebay for the time being.

Edited February 24 by Henners

[Eli4-2]

A lot of technicians swear by the 1.2M serial number of the M4. The M4-2 were also made from brass, same with majority of the M4-Ps, only the later M4-Ps were built with zinc. I have a M4-2 for sale if you're interested.

Edited February 27 by Eli4-2