Is Leica losing its' touch with new releases?

[Coppereye]

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I came on today to ask a different question but got caught up in this thread.  
 

I’ve been through the rusting problem with the S (006) which Leica agreed to fix for me.  I’ve had both the 240 ( twice) and the M10 but have now gone back to the M3 SS with a collapsible 50mm and a 90mm Elmar.  

The S has gone and I have moved to the SL I have problems handling things as the S was just too heavy.

I also have a Q purchased not long after release that I won’t trade or upgrade.

what drew me to Leica was the “look” that Leica images had.  I started out with Canon  5 Ds. The 5D mark 2 had the facility to adjust the focussing point because some lenses ( the 24-70mm L ) tended to back focus.

I have tried the Hassie X1D - and that was buggy as hell! Beautiful images when everything worked.

I view is that photography is basically using the ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture to produce a image of good quality.  If it’s a good or bad image then that’s upto the photographer.  
 

In common with everything else Leica are adding more and more bits of functionality that perhaps seem a good idea and that can have a knock on effect on other existing features.  
 

That’s what happens when you develop a system ( I spent over 30 years in systems design and management ) The new stuff is tested but seemingly very few test in a real word scenario.  

Im my opinion rather than bolting bits on the software that drives the camera. They should rebuild the software so that everything works together.  The menu list gets longer and longer.  

OK software wasn’t responsible for the sensor rust on the CCD sensors but look at the forum for the new Leica Lux iPhone grip - this is beset with problems. It’s currently unavailable on line - sold out or pulled out because it doesn’t work!

 

[PetPhoto]

you can find a problem with just about every digital camera these days. 

 

I think i took 20 shots with my nikon 7500 last year.  I took perhaps 30 rolls of film last year. all 36 exposure or larger. 

That nikon has CRAP autofocus..  with most lenses. The nikon 100-300 lens i have, if i aim at a tree in a mild breeze, the autofocus will use half of the battery capacity and actually CRASH the autofucus system if i dont swtich to manual focus mode.

 

That nikon has crap dectection modes. They may work in a store or lab, but if I am trying to get a shot on a particular bird, and have manually zoomed in on that bird,,, anytime another bird gets in frame, the damn camera automatically changes focus to the other bird in frame.. normally as i hit the shutter release..

 

Sure that nikon 7500 has a cutesy lcd display that swings out, but in normal sunlight i cannot see it unless I am wearing a hat and the LCD is in shadow. Sunglasses make it turn solid black, and the sunlight makes it a giant mirror in the face.   And its such a nifty device that If i use the camera in mirrorless mode.. i cannot have the lcd panel touching the camera body, or the heat buildup according to the manual warnings has an 80% risk of damaging the LCD panel, OR the image processor chips.

 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

On 2/15/2025 at 7:16 AM, CptSlevin said:

Hello!
I would like to start a controversial topic.
Latest Leica releases except from Q3, Q3 43 (which are very hard to spoil) are kind of a mixed bag.

Leica M11 huge freezing issues, unacceptable level of miscommunication and problem solving with bricking cameras.
For a main flagship camera it's very bad reputational achievement on the level of M9 CCD corrosion issue.

Leica SL3 was a fairly nice launch, but more to be desired with the camera, firmware issues, not present functions which are present in SL2, AF speed didn't hit any stars, horrendous EVF blackouts.
I had a feeling like SL3 was rushed to market due to competition with Panasonic and camera is still in beta.

Leica SL3S is on another level of disappointment, it's past gen camera (refurbished Lumix S5IIX) with less hybrid features which can't compete with SL2S, because of the price factor, lack of new features, same sensor, worse IBIS.
It didn't have any improvements except from AF which is still in beta stage and doesn't live up to other manufacturers.

I know that Leica is accumulating the Highest Revenue in Its Entire 100-Year History, but at what cost?
https://petapixel.com/2024/11/20/leica-just-recorded-the-highest-revenue-in-its-entire-100-year-history/

Quality of their releases is mediocre at best, they don't innovate, they have low QC (used to be stellar) and a lot of issues with firmware that can brick cameras.
I still see people buying used M10s because they are reliable, old lenses like summiluxes had more magic in their optical schemes, new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

Your opinion?

In my opinion Leica has become luxury. As any luxury product it is not about performance or been reliable. 

[Coppereye]

In some ways I liken Leica to Apple.  Both are at the high ticket price end of the market,with low depreciation. but both are seeing the competition innovating faster than they are.

i will say however that Apple has continued to produce their quality products that matches their price tag ( my opinion ok ).

Leica are releasing things rapidly and in different product areas Range Finder, Mirrorless, Fized lens (Q), Monochrom then we have watches that are priced around the APO lenses, their Lux grip seems a joke.  Looks good in the glossies  but not by the losers.  
 

Leica stick to what you are good at, you have been for 100 years.  Quality cameras and lenses that have superb image quality. I am using an M3 SS from 1954 that still looks superb - will the M11, M10, SL range be useable in 69 years!  

[PetPhoto]

The fact that Leica helped Sigma with their new BF clone of the CL camera really drives  home that Leica has lost its touch with reality. They work with other companies, that cell phone camera lens comes to mind.. that do not increase the value or technological level of the Leica Camera line. 

 

I almost want to bet that the CL was discontinued as part of the co development with Sigmo for that BF camera. 

When it comes to digital I am firmly NOT a leica person, i need an optical view finder. And as a result, leica products just arent doing what I need

[Coppereye]

2 minutes ago, PetPhoto said:

When it comes to digital I am firmly NOT a leica person, i need an optical view finder. And as a result, leica products just arent doing what I need

I think it’s good that one brand doesn’t dominate the market.  What does make me laugh is how behind the scenes supposed rival brands work together when they openly compete.  Leica and Panasonic - for years I used a Panasonic bridge and recommended them to people who asked because their lenses were made by Leica.  I don’t know if they still do but Samsung used to make the iPad screens.

I choose Leica because of the history, the renowned image quality but also the simplicity.  This is why I enjoy using the M3 not even a light meter!  
 

There will always be different ( and sometimes angry ) views of which brand is best - I always believe that if we all thought the same way, life would be very boring.  

[PetPhoto]

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11 hours ago, Coppereye said:

I think it’s good that one brand doesn’t dominate the market.  What does make me laugh is how behind the scenes supposed rival brands work together when they openly compete.  Leica and Panasonic - for years I used a Panasonic bridge and recommended them to people who asked because their lenses were made by Leica.  I don’t know if they still do but Samsung used to make the iPad screens.

I choose Leica because of the history, the renowned image quality but also the simplicity.  This is why I enjoy using the M3 not even a light meter!  
 

There will always be different ( and sometimes angry ) views of which brand is best - I always believe that if we all thought the same way, life would be very boring.  

If you say those things on photrio, you will suddenly have a non active account on that site. 

 

Alot of places will hang ya if you are against or cant use the LCD panel crap

[LocalHero1953]

14 hours ago, PetPhoto said:

The fact that Leica helped Sigma with their new BF clone of the CL camera really drives  home that Leica has lost its touch with reality. They work with other companies, that cell phone camera lens comes to mind.. that do not increase the value or technological level of the Leica Camera line. 

 

I almost want to bet that the CL was discontinued as part of the co development with Sigmo for that BF camera. 

When it comes to digital I am firmly NOT a leica person, i need an optical view finder. And as a result, leica products just arent doing what I need

How do you make the BF to be a clone of the CL? Different shape, full frame, no EVF..........

And if you want an optical viewfinder on a digital Leica, you can have a M or S. Of course no one has to want a Leica.

Edited March 5 by LocalHero1953

[andybarton]

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/bf/
 

It looks a lot like a Leica of about 10 years ago. The one where they spent 45 minutes polishing the aluminium body by hand, or something <cough>.

If you want a camera that works like a phone with a lens stuck on the front, it looks pretty capable to me. 

[LocalHero1953]

51 minutes ago, andybarton said:

It looks a lot like a Leica of about 10 years ago.

Or a Zeiss ZX1 - which was full frame, though it had an EVF.

[FrozenInTime]

The BF will become a collectable ... not because it is a good camera, but as it has that combination of design statement and limited numbers.

Just nine a day : https://petapixel.com/2025/02/25/sigma-can-make-just-nine-bf-cameras-a-day/

[LocalHero1953]

The BF and TL2 are surprisingly comparable in size.

[PetPhoto]

the clone/copy commentation i have seen is in actual company press releases/sales advertisements.. not mine. i havent handled either camera. 

 

as to the sigma nine a day crap..  The aluminium is awfully easy to machine. And looking at it, from a drafting standpoint, and the machines they claim to use, they should be able to machine 1 case per hour, tops,, thats if they were using jigs and fixtures for each specific machining step.  

    Going by the looks, they should be able to make 3 and hour on each machine, the miling anyways.

 

If they bought the right cuttings tools, they can probably do one start to finish in 15 minutes.

[jaapv]

Quote

 

The fact that Leica helped Sigma with their new BF clone of the CL camera really drives  home that Leica has lost its touch with reality

Umm - Minolta-Leica - virtually the whole R series; Minolta CLE? Leica and Sigma? Leica and Panasonic in MFT? Digilux2- Panasonic? Schneider lens cooperation? Minolta lenses by Leica and the other way around (zooms and mirror lenses)? The list is long...

[LocalHero1953]

45 minutes ago, PetPhoto said:

the clone/copy commentation i have seen is in actual company press releases/sales advertisements.. not mine. i havent handled either camera. 

 

I owned the CL. It is nothing like the BF in looks or functionality. 
If you have links to such comment, please pass them on - I find it difficult to believe Sigma would make such a 'clone' comment (nor Leica for that matter).

Edited March 5 by LocalHero1953

[PetPhoto]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Umm - Minolta-Leica - virtually the whole R series; Minolta CLE? Leica and Sigma? Leica and Panasonic in MFT? Digilux2- Panasonic? Schneider lens cooperation? Minolta lenses by Leica and the other way around (zooms and mirror lenses)? The list is long...

They are spending time and money on projects with other companies, then taking care of their OWN product lines.  What is the leica digi cam that bricks on start up? The one that hasnt had a software update in the year since it was released for sale to the public.. and so forth.

 

One almost has to wonder if the cost of the leica lenses is actually due to "its hard to make them"., or more of a "we need to recoup money we spent co designing lenses for other cameras, so our dear customers can take the burden of providing Sigma users with advanced lenses "

[jaapv]

I think that you are missing the realities of the photographic industry. Smaller companies have to cooperate to survive. Leica does not only make money by producing but also by consultancy, leasing out patents etc,  and is buying in expertise from other companies. Without such cooperation they would not survive for long. 
And since when is having updates a mark of excellence?  Rather the opposite I would say. 

[masjah]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

......... And since when is having updates a mark of excellence?  Rather the opposite I would say. 

Jaap, just a couple of observations:

(1) An update which offers significant enhancements could well be considered a mark of excellence; the introduction of Leica Perspective Control is an example

(2) No significant software/firmware in the world is free from all bugs on release. The one thing that is less excellent than having updates to fix bugs is failing to have updates to fix bugs.

 

 

[jaapv]

I know,  but - apart from new developments, the fewer the updates needed to correct errors the better the original software is. Using the number of updates as a mark of excellence is rather silly.

And update speed? A company with limited resources has to be careful. Correcting a bug can be simple - or trigger an avalanche of problems. Extensive testing takes time. Having dozens of developers does speed things up. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Coppereye]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

And update speed? A company with limited resources has to be careful. Correcting a bug can be simple - or trigger an avalanche of problems. Extensive testing takes time. Having dozens of developers does speed things up. 

You are spot on - I spent 30 years, 20 of them designing and supporting systems.  You can do all the testing you like in house but when it gets into users hands you find what I called the “oh bugger” bug - many times these were because we hadn’t picked up how a user worked.   They  can either be easy to spot or ansolutely difficult to find.

Also testing every condition can take a long time and may not be cost effective.  
 

to have a large IT teams is a massive expense.  Cost of engaging them, all the kit they need and keeping them up to date can be extortionate.  Using contractors can be more.