Is Leica losing its' touch with new releases?

[LocalHero1953]

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The BF and TL2 are surprisingly comparable in size.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[PetPhoto]

the clone/copy commentation i have seen is in actual company press releases/sales advertisements.. not mine. i havent handled either camera. 

 

as to the sigma nine a day crap..  The aluminium is awfully easy to machine. And looking at it, from a drafting standpoint, and the machines they claim to use, they should be able to machine 1 case per hour, tops,, thats if they were using jigs and fixtures for each specific machining step.  

    Going by the looks, they should be able to make 3 and hour on each machine, the miling anyways.

 

If they bought the right cuttings tools, they can probably do one start to finish in 15 minutes.

[jaapv]

Quote

 

The fact that Leica helped Sigma with their new BF clone of the CL camera really drives  home that Leica has lost its touch with reality

Umm - Minolta-Leica - virtually the whole R series; Minolta CLE? Leica and Sigma? Leica and Panasonic in MFT? Digilux2- Panasonic? Schneider lens cooperation? Minolta lenses by Leica and the other way around (zooms and mirror lenses)? The list is long...

[LocalHero1953]

45 minutes ago, PetPhoto said:

the clone/copy commentation i have seen is in actual company press releases/sales advertisements.. not mine. i havent handled either camera. 

 

I owned the CL. It is nothing like the BF in looks or functionality. 
If you have links to such comment, please pass them on - I find it difficult to believe Sigma would make such a 'clone' comment (nor Leica for that matter).

Edited March 5 by LocalHero1953

[PetPhoto]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Umm - Minolta-Leica - virtually the whole R series; Minolta CLE? Leica and Sigma? Leica and Panasonic in MFT? Digilux2- Panasonic? Schneider lens cooperation? Minolta lenses by Leica and the other way around (zooms and mirror lenses)? The list is long...

They are spending time and money on projects with other companies, then taking care of their OWN product lines.  What is the leica digi cam that bricks on start up? The one that hasnt had a software update in the year since it was released for sale to the public.. and so forth.

 

One almost has to wonder if the cost of the leica lenses is actually due to "its hard to make them"., or more of a "we need to recoup money we spent co designing lenses for other cameras, so our dear customers can take the burden of providing Sigma users with advanced lenses "

[jaapv]

I think that you are missing the realities of the photographic industry. Smaller companies have to cooperate to survive. Leica does not only make money by producing but also by consultancy, leasing out patents etc,  and is buying in expertise from other companies. Without such cooperation they would not survive for long. 
And since when is having updates a mark of excellence?  Rather the opposite I would say. 

[masjah]

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

......... And since when is having updates a mark of excellence?  Rather the opposite I would say. 

Jaap, just a couple of observations:

(1) An update which offers significant enhancements could well be considered a mark of excellence; the introduction of Leica Perspective Control is an example

(2) No significant software/firmware in the world is free from all bugs on release. The one thing that is less excellent than having updates to fix bugs is failing to have updates to fix bugs.

 

 

[jaapv]

I know,  but - apart from new developments, the fewer the updates needed to correct errors the better the original software is. Using the number of updates as a mark of excellence is rather silly.

And update speed? A company with limited resources has to be careful. Correcting a bug can be simple - or trigger an avalanche of problems. Extensive testing takes time. Having dozens of developers does speed things up. 

[Coppereye]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

And update speed? A company with limited resources has to be careful. Correcting a bug can be simple - or trigger an avalanche of problems. Extensive testing takes time. Having dozens of developers does speed things up. 

You are spot on - I spent 30 years, 20 of them designing and supporting systems.  You can do all the testing you like in house but when it gets into users hands you find what I called the “oh bugger” bug - many times these were because we hadn’t picked up how a user worked.   They  can either be easy to spot or ansolutely difficult to find.

Also testing every condition can take a long time and may not be cost effective.  
 

to have a large IT teams is a massive expense.  Cost of engaging them, all the kit they need and keeping them up to date can be extortionate.  Using contractors can be more.

 

[Coppereye]

On 2/17/2025 at 10:46 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

All systems have issues. But Leica is the most unreliable/unfinished/low QC brand in the world right now. And it's definitely affecting my use of Leica cameras and my desire for the brand. I get that it's a small company with a lot of human input. I expect that something made entirely by a machine will be somewhat more reliable. But I want better.

6 months for a repair is unacceptable. More so when a company is profitable. And no, I don't buy into it takes too long to train them BS. It's been this way for decades. Yes I'm sure you can drive to Wetzlar and jump the que. But that means the rest of us wait even longer so a precious few have a wonderful experience. My SL's have been reliable, mostly. Same with my Q's. But I've had more than one M body where the RF was out on opening the box. More than one lens also out. And you've paid thousands for it to go on a 4-6 month holiday, unused. Not good enough. When I had the one issue with my SL601, it took 5 months and I used those cameras for work. I believe in self sufficiency but that's a long time to align a sensor. My personal record was a 90mm Summarit that had two trips to Germany and that took 11 months.

I just picked up my A1 mk2 and the 28-70 f2.0. It's boring as bat shit. Some call it a 7K firmware upgrade. I hate the buttons and menus. But it just works. Charged the battery and set up the camera. I didn't think for a nano second that it might have issues. I always have that with a new Leica. What's the catch? The IQ of the 28-70 is fabulous. Basically a set of SL APO's in one lens. I'm not wondering where the glitches are, or what type of SD cards might work. Or whether they'll ever get the animal firmware out of *beta*. I prefer the SL3 body in every way but I'm so tired of seeing that *beta* AF thing. It's been a YEAR already. I don't think they'll ever do better. Maybe they'll remove the tag in firmware or release another dozen special edition Soforts. I doubt the animal AF will actually get better. Sure it took me an hour to set the Sony up. But now I can forget about it. The experience sucks but it's balanced out with me not wondering if it'll do it's job today. And why does my SL3 take a different amount of time to start up each time? Shit like that is a red flag.

Leicas are an emotional purchase. No, the M doesn't have any special sauce and yes you can find lenses as good as the APO's. Or good enough you can't see the difference. Leicas don't make better images. It's the feel in hand and the shooting experience. And, for me, I'm slowly losing the joy of shooting Leicas because they don't get out of the way like they should. That shooting experience means nothing if it's no fun. If in the back of my mind I have to wonder if my M11 will freeze up today, or why I'm using beta firmware a year in on my SL3. Or whether like the CL they'll just cut the whole thing and leave us with no upgrade path.

When a company takes months to do a warranty repair or a firmware fix (a year for the M11. Or was it two years?) it's obvious the company has no regard for the customers. I'm happy the company is healthy. But it feels like they are only interested in the money. That's a taste I don't like having. When I picked up my Q3-43 it was HUNDREDS extra for the thumb grip. Just the though of how much of a money grab is has spoiled the camera for me. I got the exact same stuff with the exact same quality for less than half of that but that bitter after taste still lingers. I am seriously thinking it's time to get out of Leica altogether because there's no support, really. Once they have your cash you're on your own. And that's not enough, for me, anymore.

Bizarrely I'm off on a Leica Academei trip next mont and out of three choices (Hasselblad, Sony and Leica) the Leica is currently in 3rd place...... I'm actully tempted to take one Sony camera and one zooms lens. 

Gordon

Gordon

I think this is one of the most common sense views of the situation.  
 

If it’s for your profession and you rely on it to work everytime you turn it on.  As much as I love Leica I can understand your problems.  
 

My son in law wanted a car that he could use when attending appointments ( will writing ) he set his heart on a Alpha Romeo ( an old one ) his belief was that it would create a good image - I reminded him of the renowned reliability issues and that yes it may impress but only if you get there.

If you turn up to an assignment with your Leica gear ( up to date anyway ).  It may look good to an informed client but the vast majority won’t know. Then it won’t turn on and the same with the backup; you lose that assignment.  Word spreads!
 

Due to illness I don’t work professionally anymore but I would feel the same.  I’d probably drop back to Canon or maybe to a Hassie X2D. I tried the original X1D but the cost to replace lenses was very high but the quality was awesome and the size made it less noticeable. 

[ALScott]

@FlashGordonPhotography Highly respecting all of your posts and opinions.... I would say the M's special sauce is that it is an M.  There is nothing else available in the market like it in every way.  Size and lens choices being the top differences not to mention its IQ abilities.  I have procured a Q3, SL3, SL3S and an M11P in the last 12 months and the one I grab the most frequently is the M.  I love them all and use them all but the M gets the most use but that is just me.  Also, I am lucky with my Leica gear in there has been no freezing or other issues of any kind.  I just grab them and go, total confidence they will do what they are intended to do.  I missed focus on some grandchild's baseball this past weekend but given the situation I really think it's 50/50 at best that any brand could have gotten it.  Any AF system would have to been able to read my mind to nail what I missed.  I don't blame the Leica.  All of the other pics were tight, drilled down, in focus and it was AFc with the SL3s that was the star of the show.  It nailed him running around the based at 15 fps.

[Coppereye]

I love the M system.  I bought my first M just after Christmas 2016 along with a 50mm Summilux.  The train journey back from London was awful because I wanted to play.  
 

It was a demo M240 and I loved the lack of copious external knobs and dials using them was an absolute delight.

I did move to an M10 but now I shoot with film on a 1950’s M3 and digital on my Q or my SL.

People are talking about freezing issues with the M11, cameras turning into bricks etc.  My view is that they are trying to push too much technology into an M - for example video, why use a rangefinder camera for video recording when there are cameras out there that do video better?

Im going to pose a question : isn’t the Leica MD the way to go? 

Strip the M back to what it is at its core -  but using a sensor to capture the image rather than film! Less technology fewer bits of software/hardware to fail.( and take away the damned Video - it adds technology and bulk to the M and ultimately more things to break ) 

the photographers thoughts should be on the subject not on what clipping levels or making sure you don’t press the video button.  

I occasionally teach basic photography ( move away from the Program mode ) and I always fit in a session when I ask students to cover the rear screen - slows them down but ultimately the majority are happier with their results

[T25UFO]

22 hours ago, Coppereye said:

I love the M system.  I bought my first M just after Christmas 2016 along with a 50mm Summilux.  The train journey back from London was awful because I wanted to play.  
 

It was a demo M240 and I loved the lack of copious external knobs and dials using them was an absolute delight.

I did move to an M10 but now I shoot with film on a 1950’s M3 and digital on my Q or my SL.

People are talking about freezing issues with the M11, cameras turning into bricks etc.  My view is that they are trying to push too much technology into an M - for example video, why use a rangefinder camera for video recording when there are cameras out there that do video better?

Im going to pose a question : isn’t the Leica MD the way to go? 

Strip the M back to what it is at its core -  but using a sensor to capture the image rather than film! Less technology fewer bits of software/hardware to fail.( and take away the damned Video - it adds technology and bulk to the M and ultimately more things to break ) 

the photographers thoughts should be on the subject not on what clipping levels or making sure you don’t press the video button.  

I occasionally teach basic photography ( move away from the Program mode ) and I always fit in a session when I ask students to cover the rear screen - slows them down but ultimately the majority are happier with their results

The 'damned video' was taken away with the M10 and hasn't resurfaced in the 11.  I [sort of] agree with your comments on the D variants, although the latest model does appear to be over reliant on an iPhone connection to the Fotos App, so it's not a 'back to basics' camera.  I did think about buying one but this put me off, as did the number of seemingly complicated button combinations necessary to achieve settings that are a lot easier with a rear screen.

I did buy the original MD, which seemed to be a lot simpler to operate, or maybe my memory is being selective again!

[7enderbender]

On 2/15/2025 at 1:16 AM, CptSlevin said:

Hello!
I would like to start a controversial topic.
Latest Leica releases except from Q3, Q3 43 (which are very hard to spoil) are kind of a mixed bag.

Leica M11 huge freezing issues, unacceptable level of miscommunication and problem solving with bricking cameras.
For a main flagship camera it's very bad reputational achievement on the level of M9 CCD corrosion issue.

Leica SL3 was a fairly nice launch, but more to be desired with the camera, firmware issues, not present functions which are present in SL2, AF speed didn't hit any stars, horrendous EVF blackouts.
I had a feeling like SL3 was rushed to market due to competition with Panasonic and camera is still in beta.

Leica SL3S is on another level of disappointment, it's past gen camera (refurbished Lumix S5IIX) with less hybrid features which can't compete with SL2S, because of the price factor, lack of new features, same sensor, worse IBIS.
It didn't have any improvements except from AF which is still in beta stage and doesn't live up to other manufacturers.

I know that Leica is accumulating the Highest Revenue in Its Entire 100-Year History, but at what cost?
https://petapixel.com/2024/11/20/leica-just-recorded-the-highest-revenue-in-its-entire-100-year-history/

Quality of their releases is mediocre at best, they don't innovate, they have low QC (used to be stellar) and a lot of issues with firmware that can brick cameras.
I still see people buying used M10s because they are reliable, old lenses like summiluxes had more magic in their optical schemes, new lenses tend to be clinical in order to resolve 60mp sensors.

Your opinion?

I’m still very new to Leica after buying a refurbished M10R and two nice lenses from a Leica store. I hear what you are saying about the M11 - which is why I went with the  M10-R (almost no savings really). 
I’d be concerned if people keep complaint about “lack of innovation” that things will get worse from my viewpoint. I went the Leica route because I was sick and tired of all the “innovation” that Canon had been throwing at us. Same reason I drive (and baby) and older model car. I want less, not more “innovation”. 
i understand the need for AF and image stabilization and 100 fps and electronic viewfinders for professional sports shooters or so. For me photography is something entirely different. Just like I enjoy driving with a manual transmission on a rural winding road as opposed to pretending that I have the need for a track car with automatic everything or some hunking big luxury vehicle that drives itself. 
So I hope the “influencer” crowd doesn’t destroy everything by adding more unwanted “features”. My M10-R does everything I want it to do. My only complaint I have is that I can’t seem to find another spare battery. 

[Coppereye]

2 minutes ago, 7enderbender said:

I’d be concerned if people keep complaint about “lack of innovation” that things will get worse from my viewpoint. I went the Leica route because I was sick and tired of all the “innovation” that Canon had been throwing at us. Same reason I drive (and baby) and older model car. I want less, not more “innovation”. 

Here here !!!

the more options you have the more points of failure.  If people want all the features Canon , Nikon et al will be happy to serve you. 

[Coppereye]

On 3/9/2025 at 1:03 PM, T25UFO said:

The 'damned video' was taken away with the M10 and hasn't resurfaced in the 11.

I had an M10 I must have developed a video button blindness.  Therefore I apologise any comments regarding Video - the rest stand ( for me anyway )