Are all M cameras and lenses finicky or do I have bad luck?

[anonymoose]

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Here's a brief summary of my excursion into the world of M:

• M11 #1: very lightly used (basically brand new), out of horizontal and vertical alignment
• M11 #2: also very lightly used, out of horizontal alignment
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #1: very lightly used, rather loose focus mechanism with ~10mm dead zone when changing directions + slightly click
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #2: brand new, 2-3" of front-focusing at ~3' distance
• M10-R + Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH I: M10-R (used, but great condition) and lens (rental, so crapshoot here) combination is back-focusing pretty badly, but don't know if its the lens or the camera.

All of the above were confirmed by my Leica store's technicians except the M10-R, which I'll need to take in this weekend. I really, really like the M experience and think the M10-R + 35 Lux is for me, but this amount of issues with the primary thing (the rangefinder experience) that draws me to this lineup is scary.

Do I have terrible luck?

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[phojomatic]

1 minute ago, _tc said:

it's hard to say.

I've had bad luck with a single Leica product out of a great many; a 50mm summilux asph, an early one at that, that could not reach infinity. unfortunately the rangefinder system has some challenges that other camera systems can get around. For example, it's simply not an issue if an autofocus lens can focus past infinity to a significant degree if the AF system simply stops it at infinity and software can be used to keep the lens from going past. Front focusing? Not an issue if you focus through the lens (though focus shift can be and often was on SLRs).

I know it's tempting to say "such an expensive camera shouldnt have any issues" but that's not really how it works. Voigtlander has had lenses with known issues.  I dont think Nikon would be that consistent if they were selling the same product. Of course Nikon wouldn't sell the same product, the S rangefinders were quite a bit more towards "rugged" to begin with.

In terms of Nikon, they had such bad back focusing problems from D1-D5 that they had to add a back focusing compensation menu item. 
 

it would be interesting if Leica could add an electronic rangefinder compensation option so owners could fine tune focus. Add to M13 wishlist. 

[anonymoose]

12 minutes ago, _tc said:

it's hard to say.

I've had bad luck with a single Leica product out of a great many; a 50mm summilux asph, an early one at that, that could not reach infinity. unfortunately the rangefinder system has some challenges that other camera systems can get around. For example, it's simply not an issue if an autofocus lens can focus past infinity to a significant degree if the AF system simply stops it at infinity and software can be used to keep the lens from going past. Front focusing? Not an issue if you focus through the lens (though focus shift can be and often was on SLRs).

I know it's tempting to say "such an expensive camera shouldnt have any issues" but that's not really how it works. Voigtlander has had lenses with known issues.  I dont think Nikon would be that consistent if they were selling the same product. Of course Nikon wouldn't sell the same product, the S rangefinders were quite a bit more towards "rugged" to begin with.

The sheer number of issues I've had with so many different bodies and lenses in a matter of months is quite jarring. I'm fortunate that I haven't had a single issue with any of my Sony cameras in the last 10 years, so relative to that it's disconcerting.

That being said, I don't want to give up on the M as I really enjoy the experience. Bodies and lenses that don't focus properly, 4-6 month repair times for issues that may occur, etc. are dealbreakers though.

[anonymoose]

2 minutes ago, _tc said:

My solution to this problem is to buy tested, verifiably so, used equipment. Even more than new.

If you can, go to a Leica store and put the lens and the body together and see if they work. If that's not possible, find a dealer with whom you can have a relationship. It costs a bit more (though not as much more as buying sealed new) but it's been my strategy.

Nothing you can do about the repair times though. Leica is no longer a pros first camera company. Frankly, is anyone anymore? But Nikon and Canon and Sony still at least have programs. Hasselblad repairs are just as bad as Leica.

All but the M10-R + 35 Lux Asph I were purchased used through a local Leica store

[lykaman]

Lots of horror stories on many Leica bodies & lenses, many have no issues and are completely happy. I think the equation is - money aside, do I want the experience in spite of these issues? 🍻

[darylgo]

My experience matches yours, the solution starting with my M9 and M240 with multiple lenses was to send it all to Leica while under warranty and they calibrated everything.  In the past this might require several attempts by Leica (New Jersey at the time), recently their calibration has been spot-on first try.  

With everything calibrated new purchases may require further Leica adjustments, to avoid I use my calibrated body/lens and try out the equipment before purchase.  

Don't be discouraged, once calibrated and other issues are resolved the M system is exceptional and an unmatched experience.  

 

[Dazzajl]

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It’s sounds like an unfortunate combination of bad luck having a run of faulty gear and the all too commonly reported poor service from Leica retailers. 
 

Hopefully you will come out of this with a stable and functioning set up, because as you say, there is nothing like the digital M shooting experience. 

[anonymoose]

16 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

It’s sounds like an unfortunate combination of bad luck having a run of faulty gear and the all too commonly reported poor service from Leica retailers. 
 

Hopefully you will come out of this with a stable and functioning set up, because as you say, there is nothing like the digital M shooting experience. 

Even if I can get a working combo of camera and lens, I'm worried something will get knocked out of alignment (despite me generally caring for my items) and I'll just experience this later.

To be quite honest, the thought of being without a $10k+ camera setup for months on end is almost a dealbreaker in and of itself.

[JNK100]

Yes. I have had two Leica M's with three lenses and zero issues.

[Markey]

59 minutes ago, anonymoose said:

Even if I can get a working combo of camera and lens, I'm worried something will get knocked out of alignment (despite me generally caring for my items) and I'll just experience this later.

To be quite honest, the thought of being without a $10k+ camera setup for months on end is almost a dealbreaker in and of itself.

Been using RF`s since the `80`s and never had an issue.

When I say using I don`t just mean on the street and in cafe`s but in fields and in all weathers .

[Dazzajl]

1 hour ago, anonymoose said:

Even if I can get a working combo of camera and lens, I'm worried something will get knocked out of alignment (despite me generally caring for my items) and I'll just experience this later.

To be quite honest, the thought of being without a $10k+ camera setup for months on end is almost a dealbreaker in and of itself.

I can understand that and I wouldn’t personally go so far up the food chain in the M system. If I’m reading your posts right, you have Sony kit for the times that you want modern shooting and modern, highly digital images. If you went a little further back, to an M9 or M240 perhaps. Then added in some more vintage or vintage inspired lenses, you have something that complements your modern kit and offers you that unique way of shooting without the massive $10k type outlay. 
 

Just a thought to add to the process. 

[anonymoose]

58 minutes ago, Dazzajl said:

I can understand that and I wouldn’t personally go so far up the food chain in the M system. If I’m reading your posts right, you have Sony kit for the times that you want modern shooting and modern, highly digital images. If you went a little further back, to an M9 or M240 perhaps. Then added in some more vintage or vintage inspired lenses, you have something that complements your modern kit and offers you that unique way of shooting without the massive $10k type outlay.  
 

Just a thought to add to the process. 

Definitely a good suggestion and one that I've considered. Unfortunately I do like some modern creature comforts. I picked the M10-R for higher res/cropping and the touchscreen. I'd be lying if I said looks didn't play a part either . It feels like the M10-R might be the sweet spot for me, but maybe I should look at pairing it with a vintage lens. Any particular recommendations that are 35mm and f1.4-f2?

Also considered M6, but I don't want to go down the film path yet in life.

Edited January 30 by anonymoose

[jakontil]

I have good experiences with leica products but not perfect, with the lens usually oke, brand new or used but used is safer since i could try it out… the new ones got problem with 35 lux II asph, where the aperture ring stuck 

the mp body didnt light up the metering.. but my store whom i got it from is kind enough to swap immediately after a day of use… mind you i live in 3rd world country 

[charlesphoto99]

It's a crap shoot. I won't bother listing. The worse part is the turnaround time. My M10M rf needs calibrating but I'm going with a local repair (Red Dot in Seattle) as I can't be bothered with the wait and cost of sending it to Leica. They even offered to pick it up from me at home. I've actually lived with bodies and/or lenses with the rf off and just learned to compensate while shooting due to the expense and wait times. DAG is great for lenses or older bodies, but since everybody knows that his wait times have greatly expanded as well. 

[anonymoose]

The M10-R has been returned. Tested out some used M11 bodies (all in excellent condition) yesterday and found one that is properly calibrated (confirmed with two different lenses).

Fingers crossed it remains that way! Now to find a lens that doesn't have front-focusing or back-focusing issues 😅. I prefer the 35 Lux FLE 2022's aesthetics/package, but I'm wondering if I should go with the tried-and-true with the screw on lens hood (would also save about $2k!).

Edited February 1 by anonymoose

[anonymoose]

Just now, _tc said:

I dont find close focus that useful. I have other cameras for close up work.

In fact, I mostly find the close focus summilux's with their extra chunk barrels to be annoying. My 50 is close focus, my 35 isn't. I do like that Leica tweaked the 50 a bit with the close focus verison, I just wish they'd have done that and not put it in a close focus helicoid.

I also don't need the close focus. I mostly like the aesthetics of the 2022 version (especially the hood) and having the extra aperture blades for smoother bokeh shape.

I'm currently renting the 2010 version and generally find myself preferring the 2022 version I previously owned (was returned due to noticeable front-focusing issues). The question is whether aesthetics and smoother bokeh are worth roughly $1,000 each to me 🤣

[anonymoose]

33 minutes ago, _tc said:

well, APO summicron bokeh is way smoother, if you care about such things. even cron ASPH v2 is noticeably less nervous.

I will agree the newer version is less nervous too, but I dont think either version looks that good with very high subject to background distance.

APO Summicron's price tag is unfortunately not smooth enough 🤣

f1.4's rendering is too good for me to switch to f2 and I somewhat frequently find myself in low-light calling for f1.4. Here's the type of look I get out of the 35mm f1.4 that I can't give up:

 

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[_leicaguru]

On 1/31/2025 at 12:36 AM, anonymoose said:

Here's a brief summary of my excursion into the world of M:

• M11 #1: very lightly used (basically brand new), out of horizontal and vertical alignment
• M11 #2: also very lightly used, out of horizontal alignment
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #1: very lightly used, rather loose focus mechanism with ~10mm dead zone when changing directions + slightly click
• Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH II #2: brand new, 2-3" of front-focusing at ~3' distance
• M10-R + Summilux-M 35mm f1.4 ASPH I: M10-R (used, but great condition) and lens (rental, so crapshoot here) combination is back-focusing pretty badly, but don't know if its the lens or the camera.

All of the above were confirmed by my Leica store's technicians except the M10-R, which I'll need to take in this weekend. I really, really like the M experience and think the M10-R + 35 Lux is for me, but this amount of issues with the primary thing (the rangefinder experience) that draws me to this lineup is scary.

Do I have terrible luck?

As far as the cameras I believe the issue is the M11 and not the M10R. 

As far as the lenses I'm not sure about the new productions. I bought a brand new 50 Summicron (v5) and a year ago the Summicron 35ASPH II also brand new and they are working flawlessly. I can't say about the new style f1.4 lenses. 

Your M10R with summicrons will work flawlessly for years. That's what I know for sure. 

I shoot at f4-f8 most of the time. I don't like things blurry in my images unless it is normal blur like the subject is very close and obviously the background things will blur a some even at f8. Also if it's dark I just set a higher ISO. One of my favorite photos I just submitted to a Leica contest was ISO5000. Tge depth of focus is more important. This is the benefit of digital cameras. You're not limited by a set ISO and the need for a very fast lens. You can shoot in the dark at f8 now. 

Edited February 1 by _leicaguru

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[_leicaguru]

11 minutes ago, _tc said:

And why precisely do you believe it's the M11? Is your source that you made it up?

Everyone has their own level of tolerance. Both lenses you mentioned have observable focus shift, is the plane of best focus in agreement with the rangefinder at f2 or f4? Is it perfect at all distances? I'll gladly bet you real money they're not perfectly perfect.

"Tge depth of focus is more important."

To you, maybe. And, fwiw, usually to me as well. Probably best not to tell other people what's important to them though.

My source is the OP itself. I was replying to him. A rental lens is a crap shoot and it appears to me that his M11 has a rangefinder issue. 

I don't use my lenses to shoot focus charts. In real world use my camera and lenses have been flawless. 

The very nature of these manual rangefinders and lenses is that they're never going to be absolutely 100% perfect under testing conditions. If this is what you need then don't shoot a Leica rangefinder with these handmade manual lenses. 

The issue is only when it affects real world use. If you notice your photos out of focus when you're taking photos in the real world. If you take every Leica and lens and start shooting charts and brick walls and scrutinize them to 800% magnification I'm sure you'll be frustrated. 

Be that as it may, my experience with my gear has been wonderful. So to answer the question in the title, and answer is yes and no. Yes that mechanical hand made things aren't perfect, but at least for me whatever flaws there are I don't and have never seen those flaws in normal every day use. 

Edited February 1 by _leicaguru

[_leicaguru]

21 minutes ago, _tc said:

Flawless for a definition of flawless that is "I didn't actually check".

Look if that sort of thing doesn't matter to you that's OK but frame it that way. In truth it rarely matters. I like to know my tools in a way that's different both approaches are fine. What's less OK is assuming that your own way of doing things is the right way, instead of a way to do things which is how your posts read.

Why you so angry bro? Don't tell me what I check or don't check. 

You are welcomed to check my lenses and my camera for focus shift. Take it to a lab and test every aperture at every distance. I'm not doing that. My photos, and yes I've been checking my photos with this combination for a few years now, are flawless regardless of the aperture and distance. I haven't noticed any issues at all (meaning through the years I've shot many small details at various distances and apertures at oblique angles and have checked for sharpness and focus accuracy such as, but not limited to, tiny pupils on an animal or small details) and I have never encountered any issues (and when I shoot these things I take a long time and ensure my focus is dead on before I take the shot). This is what I mean. I do check details and I want my photos to be as good as possible. When I can accurately get extremely sharp pupils of pigeons at different distances and angles consistently nailing the focus and many other details of other things throughout the year I say that my gear is working flawlessly for me. 

Have I checked with a microscope in a lab? No. But in terms of every day use yes. My experience is that my gear has been flawless. 

So are ALL Leica M cameras finicky? I guess it depends on your expectations. Some people better just stick to Sony. I'm sure that won't be perfect either but it takes the manual and handmade aspects out of the equation. 

Edited February 1 by _leicaguru