SrMi Posted February 2 Share #21 Posted February 2 Advertisement (gone after registration) 8 hours ago, costa43 said: The M10M is all the monochrom one needs in my opinion, it is the peak of Leica M digital. Why risk a buggy M11 camera for little gain. My suggestion would be to hold off until Leica release the M12 and see if that is worth going for or maybe going for a nice new lens which will last you forever to scratch that itch. After working with (color) M11 for a while, I picked up my M10M again. I still love the camera, but it feels a bit archaic, like the M8 to M240. I am missing the features of the M11 and ordered an M11M. I am sure that I will happily use the M10M occasionally, but the M11M will be my primary monochrome camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 2 Posted February 2 Hi SrMi, Take a look here If I get M11-M should I keep M10-M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SrMi Posted February 2 Share #22 Posted February 2 3 hours ago, AceVentura1986 said: My point is that, although the M11 platform has some really good upgraded features over the M10 platform (such as finally ditching the bottom plate cover) I believe the M10M is already more camera than most photographers will ever need. I have an Arte di Mano M10M camera case, which replaces the bottom plate and allows quick battery and SD card access. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 2 Share #23 Posted February 2 9 hours ago, ramarren said: ... I'm very happy with the M10-R and M10-M, to the point that I hadn't even looked at the M11 until the M11-D was announced. The M11-D appeals to me in the same way that the M-D typ 262 did ... a body without the intrusion of an LCD display just seems more like a "real" camera to me. Although I doubt that I'll do it, I'd replace the M10-R with the M11-D because there are moments when I feel the color camera could benefit from the greater Mpixel resolution ... but I somehow doubt that I will. The M10-M is just fine as it is, for me. ... Thinking about this overnight, I suspect that if I bought an M11-D to replace/upgrade the M10-R, I'd feel motivated to also buy an M11-M so that I could share batteries between the two bodies just as I do now with the M10-R and M10-M. Whether that is sufficiently sensible justification, I suspect I'd do it because it's nice to have just one type of battery for a given kit. The "additional features" of the M11 over the M10 intrigues me a little bit. Aside from the bottom plate and the battery difference (I note you still have to pull the battery to change the card, so how much "different" is that really?), and the different way that metering works in RF mode, and the sensor resolution, what other "features" of the M11 are there over the M10 that I'm unaware of? I know the M11's Visoflex is higher resolution than the Visoflex 020 I use with the M10s, but what else? I'll have to go look at a comparison listing, but if anyone here can summarize that would be helpful. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 2 Share #24 Posted February 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 2 Share #25 Posted February 2 44 minutes ago, ramarren said: Thinking about this overnight, I suspect that if I bought an M11-D to replace/upgrade the M10-R, I'd feel motivated to also buy an M11-M so that I could share batteries between the two bodies just as I do now with the M10-R and M10-M. Whether that is sufficiently sensible justification, I suspect I'd do it because it's nice to have just one type of battery for a given kit. The "additional features" of the M11 over the M10 intrigues me a little bit. Aside from the bottom plate and the battery difference (I note you still have to pull the battery to change the card, so how much "different" is that really?), and the different way that metering works in RF mode, and the sensor resolution, what other "features" of the M11 are there over the M10 that I'm unaware of? I know the M11's Visoflex is higher resolution than the Visoflex 020 I use with the M10s, but what else? I'll have to go look at a comparison listing, but if anyone here can summarize that would be helpful. G Here are some M11M advantages from my list. I don't know if you care for any of them. - Lighter (120g difference) - USB-C charging - Sapphire touchscreen - Electronic shutter - Stabilized LV is beneficial when using LV to magnify focus. - Internal memory - Much better LV - Lower base ISO - Better battery life (CIPA 210 vs 700 shots) - Better max PDR - Multi-field metering with rangefinder, highlight-weighted metering - Better long exposures (tripod) - Improved compatibility with old lenses - Triple resolution mode - More function buttons - Better flare resistance (theoretical?) - Updated menu system M10M remains a great camera, 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 2 Share #26 Posted February 2 Thank you. Qs: ... How are the long exposures with tripod better? What is 'triple resolution mode'? What is "PDR"? How is the LV "much better"? The multifield metering option with RF focusing can only mean that the shutter's default operation is similar to the operating sequence with Live View on the M10 : Curtains open at rest, exposure closes curtain, then shutter trips, then shutter re-opens. Right? How does that affect shutter release lag? By "improved compatibility with old lenses", what do you mean? More lens profiles, better compatibility with very short focal lengths and short standoff? or what? Fun fun fun.. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 2 Share #27 Posted February 2 Advertisement (gone after registration) 28 minutes ago, ramarren said: Thank you. Qs: ... How are the long exposures with tripod better? What is 'triple resolution mode'? What is "PDR"? How is the LV "much better"? The multifield metering option with RF focusing can only mean that the shutter's default operation is similar to the operating sequence with Live View on the M10 : Curtains open at rest, exposure closes curtain, then shutter trips, then shutter re-opens. Right? How does that affect shutter release lag? By "improved compatibility with old lenses", what do you mean? More lens profiles, better compatibility with very short focal lengths and short standoff? or what? Fun fun fun.. G Long exposure up to 60 minutes metered work now. I got great results at 10min. One needs a tripod, though. With 60mp sensors, triple resolution mode allows generating raw file with 60, 36, and 18 megapixels. PDR is the dynamic range as measured by Photon2Photos.com. The camera switches from and to LV instantly. The sensor is active all the time, i.e., the shutter is open all the time. This also means that the shutter must , like other mirroless cameras, close first unless you use the electronic shutter. There is no shutter lag as is noticeable with M10 LV. It is not an issue. There is more space inside the camera (now with metering from sensor) which allows use of certain lenses (dual range?). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 2 Share #28 Posted February 2 Jono explains all of this in the linked article, which includes his summarized list of 20 improvements at the end. (SrMi lists 17. See if you can find the difference. 🤪) 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 3 Share #29 Posted February 3 @Jeff S Thank you, I'll read Jono's notes on the M11... I've probably seen the link on the forum a hundred times, but as I've said: the M10-M and M10-R have been super and I've not really been looking to replace or supplement them at all. I just became curious with the announcement of the M11-D. @SrMi Thanks for the clarifications! Interesting about the lack of shutter lag. I've not really noticed it with the M10s (it was quite noticeable with the M typ 240) but then I usually use LV when doing macro or long tele work, and both require tripod/camera stand in my photography, so I'm rarely in a rush or all that sensitive to the difference in shutter lag with the M10s. The M240 LV had increased delay time to the point that it was annoying even with slow work. Buying another camera right now is low priority since what I have works so nicely, but it's time to learn what's changed with the M11. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 3 Share #30 Posted February 3 29 minutes ago, ramarren said: @Jeff S Thank you, I'll read Jono's notes on the M11... I've probably seen the link on the forum a hundred times, but as I've said: the M10-M and M10-R have been super and I've not really been looking to replace or supplement them at all. I just became curious with the announcement of the M11-D I also enjoy the M10 Monochrom and M10-R, and have no interest in buying into the M11 platform. But there is abundant info here, pro and con, through many relevant discussions from different forum members, if you have many days to browse. 😁 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
costa43 Posted February 3 Share #31 Posted February 3 (edited) 14 hours ago, SrMi said: After working with (color) M11 for a while, I picked up my M10M again. I still love the camera, but it feels a bit archaic, like the M8 to M240. I am missing the features of the M11 and ordered an M11M. I am sure that I will happily use the M10M occasionally, but the M11M will be my primary monochrome camera. I know the feeling you refer to as I own older cameras and newer ones, when switching between them it feels like going back in time. I must say though that I am surprised you feel this way about these two as I’ve been using an m10r and have tried out an m11 and do not feel either camera feels any faster than the other. I’d actually say the start up time on the older body is a bit quicker. If you are referring to the lack of bottom plate and usb charging then I guess the M11 gen is more modern but that in my eyes is a negative. I much preferred the bottom plate design, although the usb would be useful. Edited February 3 by costa43 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 3 Share #32 Posted February 3 9 minutes ago, costa43 said: I know the feeling you refer to as I own older cameras and newer ones, when switching between them it feels like going back in time. I must say though that I am surprised you feel this way about these two as I’ve been using an m10r and have tried out an m11 and do not feel either camera feels any faster than the other. I’d actually say the start up time on the older body is a bit quicker. If you are referring to the lack of bottom plate and usb charging then I guess the M11 gen is more modern but that in my eyes is a negative. I much preferred the bottom plate design, although the usb would be useful. I did not infer that M11 is faster at startup, but is faster and smoother when switching LV on/off. I feel the difference much more now that I am used to shooting with M11. When I was shooting mostly with M10R, the differences did not feel as important as they do now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
costa43 Posted February 3 Share #33 Posted February 3 1 minute ago, SrMi said: I did not infer that M11 is faster at startup, but is faster and smoother when switching LV on/off. I feel the difference much more now that I am used to shooting with M11. When I was shooting mostly with M10R, the differences did not feel as important as they do now. Yes, the live view is much better with the M11 gen. With my M10r, the battery drain is horrendous in live view. I rarely, if ever use it and wish it wasn’t there on an M body but if it’s a part of someone’s shooting style then the M11 is a marked improvement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 3 Share #34 Posted February 3 I note that while the M11 has eliminated the bottom plate which means you can switch batteries and/or storage cards perhaps a little more easily, you now must remove the battery to change the card. And yes, the M11 include 256G of internal storage so you don't need a card at all ... but that means you transfer images to your image processing system either through WiFi or by having a cable available to connect the camera to the processing computer, and/or manage software to do the transfer operation. The SL 601 which has a similar battery arrangement allows changing the storage card without having to remove the battery, which was very convenient when working on a tripod or camera stand ... less opportunity to disturb a setup and have to re-configure the camera when proceeding after the battery or card change. Which is more convenient in use on the M is an interesting question mark. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted February 3 Share #35 Posted February 3 8 hours ago, costa43 said: Yes, the live view is much better with the M11 gen. With my M10r, the battery drain is horrendous in live view. I rarely, if ever use it and wish it wasn’t there on an M body but if it’s a part of someone’s shooting style then the M11 is a marked improvement. I use Live View with M10-R and M10-M (along with the Leica FOTOS app for tethered, remote operation) when I'm doing negative capture or tabletop/macro work. The usual battery performance is about 350 exposures vs 500 to 600 exposures in average use with the rangefinder. I don't know that I could say that represented "horrendous battery drain" ... After all, you're asking the camera to do far more than 2x the work in operating the sensor and running the LCD, etc, and all of that takes power to do. ?? It is very good to hear that Leica has improved the M11's power efficiency and speed of operation in this respect. It also should be noted that they increased the battery capacity by about 30%, according to the spec sheets, to accommodate the M11's new functionality. Plusses and minuses... We haven't yet achieved getting 'something for nothing' or a perpetual motion machine. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 3 Share #36 Posted February 3 Yes, we have 3 years of discussions on these differences and issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 3 Share #37 Posted February 3 6 minutes ago, ramarren said: I use Live View with M10-R and M10-M (along with the Leica FOTOS app for tethered, remote operation) when I'm doing negative capture or tabletop/macro work. The usual battery performance is about 350 exposures vs 500 to 600 exposures in average use with the rangefinder. I don't know that I could say that represented "horrendous battery drain" ... After all, you're asking the camera to do far more than 2x the work in operating the sensor and running the LCD, etc, and all of that takes power to do. ?? It is very good to hear that Leica has improved the M11's power efficiency and speed of operation in this respect. It also should be noted that they increased the battery capacity by about 30%, according to the spec sheets, to accommodate the M11's new functionality. Plusses and minuses... We haven't yet achieved getting 'something for nothing' or a perpetual motion machine. G The difference may be caused by using different EVFs. In active LV, Visoflex 020 is always on, while Visoflex 2 can only be on when the eye sensor detects the eye's proximity. EVFs are a major battery drain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 3 Share #38 Posted February 3 6 minutes ago, Jeff S said: Yes, we have 3 years of discussions on these differences and issues. Yes, a recap is due, especially since we have more experience with the M11 series :). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 3 Share #39 Posted February 3 5 minutes ago, SrMi said: Yes, a recap is due, especially since we have more experience with the M11 series :). We’ve been recapping, continually, with experience. Welcome to forum world. What was the conclusion on the best bag to carry the M11? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 3 Share #40 Posted February 3 5 minutes ago, Jeff S said: We’ve been recapping, continually, with experience. Welcome to forum world. What was the conclusion on the best bag to carry the M11? Do not sidetrack the discussion with the best bags for M11. This is the Monochrom forum. Hence, the question should be: What is the best bag for carrying the M11 Monochrom? 🤣 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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