Who's gone back to converting color files after using a monochrom?

[Jon Warwick]

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On 1/21/2025 at 3:26 PM, tom0511 said:

For some reason I believe to see a certain clarity in those files

 

 

 

I see something similar - not sure quite what causes the favorable reaction that I have to Monochrom output, but I think it’s a mix of no aliasing (hence more detail), higher acutance, and more subtle tonal gradation.

I think it’s the acutance and subtle tonal transitions that I probably most notice, which lends a “certain clarity” as you mention. The lack of color filter array (and hence lack of scrambling of RGB data) also giving a very “unprocessed” look to Monochrom files, which remind me more of film than what I can get off the color cameras.

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[Jeff S]

This comparison ignores the option of using glass color filters when shooting with a Monochrom versus the potentially more flexible use of color channels in PP using a color-based camera.  Tonalities and rendering can also be altered in PP in various other ways for both types of cameras, not to mention effects using different print methods and materials, as well as display lighting.  

These factors can be very picture-specific. I just work to get the best pictures and prints from whatever gear I’m using.  The viewer never knows the technical factors, and the user is rarely shooting the same scenes with multiple cameras (and almost never the same lens), other than for forum discussions and the like. So, for me, camera choice comes down to other personal factors.

Edited January 24 by Jeff S

[pippy]

13 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

This comparison ignores the option of using glass color filters when shooting with a Monochrom versus the potentially more flexible use of color channels in PP using a color-based camera...

As almost everything I shoot will ultimately be rendered in monochrome I will often use Colour Contrast filters when shooting with my 'Colour' body. Mostly this will be with a Series VII drop-in filter placed in a 12504 hood as the pairing can be unclipped from the front of the lens in a second (or so) if there is some desperate need to take a 'colour' picture.

Works well for me and the IQ of the B'n'W results from the filtered files, once converted in post-prod, are great.

Philip.

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, pippy said:

As almost everything I shoot will ultimately be rendered in monochrome I will often use Colour Contrast filters when shooting with my 'Colour' body. Mostly this will be with a Series VII drop-in filter placed in a 12504 hood as the pairing can be unclipped from the front of the lens in a second (or so) if there is some desperate need to take a 'colour' picture.

Works well for me and the IQ of the B'n'W results from the filtered files, once converted in post-prod, are great.

Philip.

To each his own.  I never carry a color camera when using a Monochrom.  Having an option, however infrequent, changes the whole experience for me. No ‘almost’. And if I am using a color-based camera, I see no reason to restrict its far more convenient and flexible use of PP adjustments rather than using glass filters.  No right or wrong; just my approach.

[pippy]

15 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

To each his own.  I never carry a color camera when using a Monochrom.  Having an option, however infrequent, changes the whole experience for me...

Wow. Sorry to read that. Such a shame. As you say, "To each his own".

Philip.

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, pippy said:

Wow. Sorry to read that. Such a shame. As you say, "To each his own".

 

The essence of the B&W mindset (no possible color picture distractions… at least without PP ‘tricks’) that I and some others describe, just like B&W film days.  No shame for me. 😉

[pippy]

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8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The essence of the B&W mindset......that I and some others describe, just like B&W film days...

I know that for me, having shot almost exclusively B'n'W for a few decades, seeing in 'monochrome' is my default setting (for want of a better phrase). As such I don't need to adopt a B'n'W mindset; it's already there.

Did you never use a digital camera before Leica brought out the Monochrom? If so then what was your experience like when using one? Could you cope easily?

I'm genuinely curious.

Philip.

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

I know that for me, having shot almost exclusively B'n'W for a few decades, seeing in 'monochrome' is my default setting (for want of a better phrase). As such I don't need to adopt a B'n'W mindset; it's already there.

Did you never use a digital camera before Leica brought out the Monochrom? If so then what was your experience like when using one? Could you cope easily?

I'm genuinely curious.

Philip.

I shot B&W for decades, going back to the early 70’s, and had/have no problem ‘seeing’, i.e., visualizing, pics in monochrome.  That’s not the issue.  The mindset, in the digital age, refers to my not being distracted by also considering potential color pics, even if only infrequently, since my mind is subtly open to everything at that point. With B&W film, B&W was a given; the only consideration. I occasionally shot color, but never carried a color roll in my pocket when shooting B&W. A Monochrom provides the same limitation and approach for me now. 
 

I owned the M8.2, M240 and M10 before picking up a used M Monochrom.  Shooting B&W was not a problem, although shooting color as well provided a different mindset, as I was open to considering potential color pics. I could ‘cope’ just fine; the world didn’t end.     But the Monochrom experience was more focused and more enjoyable for me. Simple as that. 

FWIW, Mike Johnston at TOP has written about his similar feelings using a monochrome camera. And like here, there are always commenters who either don’t get it, or find it silly.  We, on the other hand, find it simple. 😉

 

[pippy]

Thanks for the reply.

Clearly that approach works well for the way you - and, of course, many others who have written similar things - go about your photography and if that's what you prefer then All's Well. As we all know there is not just one 'correct' way to go about these sorts of things. What works admirably for one person might not work at all for another.

Neither can anyone's personal shooting preferences be called 'Silly' if it is helping that photographer in their goal of achieving their desired results. Apart from the fact that to say such a thing is plainly incorrect it is quite simply rude.

Philip.

Edited January 24 by pippy

[Jeff S]

31 minutes ago, pippy said:

Neither can anyone's personal shooting preferences be called 'Silly' if it is helping that photographer in their goal of achieving their desired results. Apart from the fact that to say such a thing is plainly incorrect it is quite simply rude.

 

Funny thing is, despite my feelings about B&W mindset now, I found the original rumors about a monochrome M a bit silly, or at least unnecessary, for me. I thought that my experience from decades using B&W film could provide sufficient discipline.  But then I tried the Monochrom. I failed to appreciate the subtle mindset switch when the possible (shooting color) became impossible, and my approach was once again singular as in film days.  Silly me.

[BWColor]

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I rarely convert color files.  I rarely shoot both color and monochrom on a given day.  My last vacation consisted of a good bit of rain at which time I reverted to my X2D/38mm XCD v, but shot my M11M/35mmAPO/21mm C Biogon when it wasn’t likely to rain.  I intentionally took two cameras because I knew that it would be raining.  How I viewed my subject really varied and to that end I’ll post an few images.. one to my eye is best as a B&W and the others color.  What I shot on a given day was based upon which camera I carried.  Next I’m headed to Japan for a few weeks and I want to take one camera.  When I watch travel videos of Japan it makes me think that I should take a color camera.

 

Edited February 2 by BWColor

[brickftl]

my answer to the original question: no, I never went from mono (my current M11M) to color being converted to b/w.

I had a M11P which bricked, so when I got it back from Leica repair because I didn't feel confident that it wouldn't brick again, I sold it. Meantime while it was being repaired I picked up a CL which is perfect for times that I want to shoot color, and I never convert those images to b/w.

For me it's about my mood on a given day. I'm rarely in the mood for color, so I prefer my M11M.

Also in the past few months I've been shooting film (in addition to, but not substitution of) digital. I've shot a few color rolls, but they just don't appeal to me, so much more frequently with my film shooting days I'm shooting b/w (fast and slow depending on light conditions).

I'm not at the point where I want to abandon color altogether, but I find less and less do I have the urge to shoot color. And when I do, I'm not ever interested in converting them to b/w.

[Stevejack]

On 2/2/2025 at 8:38 AM, BWColor said:

What I shot on a given day was based upon which camera I carried.

 

Agreed, it's just the same as any other choice we make before heading out. If I have my monochrom and the scene would only work in colour, I just don't take the shot. 

I find it a bit amusing when I hear someone say that monochrom is too restricting because 'what if you want to shoot in colour?'... but they will happily run around all day with a prime lens on their colour camera. And carrying the monochrom is no different to me than carrying a single prime lens.
If you have a 28mm you have to shoot a certain way, and you can't make pictures the same way as you would if you had a 50mm on the camera instead. So the monochrom is really no different. Sure there are some shots I can't take with the monochrom, but that's ok - there are different shots to make. 

[johnwolf]

After two Monochrom versions I now use an M10, convert pretty much everything, and am pleased with the results. I actually grew tired of the super sharp, hyper-real Monochrom rendering. Just not my aesthetic, I guess. Having color channels is nice, too. Although with today’s AI selection/masking capabilities, I think channel editing has become less advantageous.

[ph0toni]

After 55 years of photography (first only B/W then the shock of the E6 4x5 inches as a professional)
I have recently begun to understand B/W only because I have a full spectrum and about twenty dedicated filters from UV to deep IR. The two extremes are practically 95% “mono”

All the problems of lack of engraving in B/W in digital (and film) are highlighted, only by using selective filters can the sharpness of the lenses be improved otherwise the chromatic aberration becomes a serious factor in sharpness.

I am looking for a mono M246 but I realize (especially if I had an M11) that I would have to use only APO lenses or selective filters to fully exploit the quality of the sensor.

I have doubts that with less corrected lenses, a standard RGB camera and a good soft correction of chromatic aberrations is the best solution to obtain monochrome images.
(in addition to this I can use the three channels to enhance / contrast areas of the image)

Edited February 19 by ph0toni

[Stevejack]

22 hours ago, johnwolf said:

After two Monochrom versions I now use an M10, convert pretty much everything, and am pleased with the results. I actually grew tired of the super sharp, hyper-real Monochrom rendering. Just not my aesthetic, I guess. Having color channels is nice, too. Although with today’s AI selection/masking capabilities, I think channel editing has become less advantageous.

It's funny I found the opposite with the when converting from colour to black and white with the Q2 / M10-R / M11 etc. They would all start with a much 'crunchier' image, like the clarity slider was turned right up. Whereas with the M10M + M11M it gave me a softer black and white image which I preferred. The sharpness was there, but it wasn't 'punchy'.  

But come to think of it I agree that my M246 / M10 colour conversions don't give me the same impression, I guess due to the lower res sensors? 24mp really is a bit of a sweet spot I think.

[Stevejack]

14 hours ago, ph0toni said:

After 55 years of photography (first only B/W then the shock of the E6 4x5 inches as a professional)
I have recently begun to understand B/W only because I have a full spectrum and about twenty dedicated filters from UV to deep IR. The two extremes are practically 95% “mono”

All the problems of lack of engraving in B/W in digital (and film) are highlighted, only by using selective filters can the sharpness of the lenses be improved otherwise the chromatic aberration becomes a serious factor in sharpness.

I am looking for a mono M246 but I realize (especially if I had an M11) that I would have to use only APO lenses or selective filters to fully exploit the quality of the sensor.

I have doubts that with less corrected lenses, a standard RGB camera and a good soft correction of chromatic aberrations is the best solution to obtain monochrome images.
(in addition to this I can use the three channels to enhance / contrast areas of the image)

If you're particularly concerned with sharpness and clarity to that degree, I don't think any of Leica's M lenses are up to the task. My 50mm APO has lots of chromatic aberration at wider apertures and it flares badly... there is only so much Leica can do with such tiny lenses. The monochrom sensor is beautiful and the M lenses are certainly engineering marvels given their size, but they really can't compete with larger lenses in terms of eliminating aberrations. I think you might be chasing your tail a bit if absolute sharpness and clarity are what you're after. And as good as the monochrom sensors themselves are, perhaps you'll get better results overall using something other than an M. 
 

[JoshuaR]

When I started this thread, it was because I was thinking of selling my M10M, to concentrate on just my M10-R. I still haven't sold the M10M, but I also still think about doing it.

The thing, for me, is that when I look at the black and white pictures I've made that I really like, only about a third of them are made with the M10M. Two thirds are made with the M10-R, simply because I carry it more often. And only about a quarter of my pictures are black and white. So that means the M10M accounts for just a niche within a niche. 

I can see the difference in quality with the files. But there's a lot that contributes to the quality of a picture that has nothing to do with the file.

So the question for me is: if I sell the M10M, will I miss it? And I'm not sure. So I haven't sold it.

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[Olaf_ZG]

On 2/19/2025 at 3:46 AM, johnwolf said:

I actually grew tired of the super sharp, hyper-real Monochrom rendering. Just not my aesthetic, I guess.

My first m, was the m8. Did quite some IR and lots of b/w conversions. Then bought the m9m and then the m10m, selling the earlier versions. Like you, I grew tired as well, especially for images with people. I missed the “gritty” feel. Sold the m10m for a Q43, a great camera, but color.

Some months ago I re-invested in the m-series for b/w. Went with the m8, and at current I am developing a standard preset for b/w conversion.

[ph0toni]

On 2/20/2025 at 2:53 AM, Stevejack said:

If you're particularly concerned with sharpness and clarity to that degree, I don't think any of Leica's M lenses are up to the task. My 50mm APO has lots of chromatic aberration at wider apertures and it flares badly... there is only so much Leica can do with such tiny lenses. The monochrom sensor is beautiful and the M lenses are certainly engineering marvels given their size, but they really can't compete with larger lenses in terms of eliminating aberrations. I think you might be chasing your tail a bit if absolute sharpness and clarity are what you're after. And as good as the monochrom sensors themselves are, perhaps you'll get better results overall using something other than an M. 
 

It was probably after reading Horatio Tan's blog 

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2016/7/22/has-digital-technology-ruined-black-and-white-photography

that I wanted an M246 and a good 35 f2, even though I would ruin it by removing the Hot pass glass (UV IR blocking)

Even today I go out with my light A7 full spectrum with a 35 f3,5 Soligor (Kuribayashi clone) good for UV and IR and a 50 f2.9 mm triplet good for UV, I don't use longer lenses, sometimes the 24.