Used Leica M10 for B&W

[LeAlain]

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I am a photographer with skilled background, no pixel peeper but with knowledge about what is important and what is just 'pixel peeping', I do not pretend to know better then others, but my decision is based on wanting a camera that is as light as possible, as small as possible and with the best image output. Very important aspect is the fact that I don't have to use faster shutter times as to avoid camera movement due to high MP of M11. The movement I see in the M10 (converted to B&W), is very natural, reminds me of my days when I was shooting film in the 80's/90's.  I get a camera that shoots color for free, I sometimes I find it convenient. 

The superhigh Iso's aren't that important, when scenes need more than 6400 (beautiful noise with M10), the scene is so dark that I won't be shooting it anyway, most of the times these situations aren't contrastful situations so they don't give beautiful results anyway.

 

Any thoughts or comments? I am just subjective and not the all-knowing.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by LeAlain

[evikne]

I love the result when I convert my M10 images to B&W. But have you considered an M10 Monochrom? It will have several advantages over a regular M10 (except, of course, that you lose the ability to also shoot color).

Edited December 16, 2024 by evikne

[pedaes]

12 minutes ago, evikne said:

I love the result when I convert my M10 images to black and white.

Agree!  Fantastic results and prints beautifully to A3+ (and probably A2 but haven't personally tried).

[costa43]

1 hour ago, LeAlain said:

The movement I see in the M10 (converted to B&W), is very natural, reminds me of my days when I was shooting film in the 80's/90's.  I get a camera that shoots color for free, I sometimes I find it convenient.

You’ve already decided it seems 😀 

The m10 is fantastic. If you are already really happy with the images you have seen from the camera then I would just stick with that. 

I slightly disagree on the high iso ability though. Although shooting wide open, 6400 iso is plenty in most situations for the reason you stated, the ability to shoot a pretty clean image at 25k iso is helpful as it allows more depth of field at hand holdable shutter speeds. It changes the way you shoot indoors/lower light. It also allows you to use more lenses with slower maximum apertures in these scenarios. These are the main reasons I am contemplating a Monochrom purchase. 

[LeAlain]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

I love the result when I convert my M10 images to B&W. But have you considered an M10 Monochrom? It will have several advantages over a regular M10 (except, of course, that you lose the ability to also shoot color).

I would prefer an M10M over a M10, but the price difference is quite hughe. A used M10M will cost me prob. 6K. I Can obtain the M10 (silver one) for a very reasonable price (with a year guarantee). Pricedifference is almost 2500

What do you consider the advantages of an M10M?

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by LeAlain

[LeAlain]

17 minutes ago, costa43 said:

You’ve already decided it seems 😀 

The m10 is fantastic. If you are already really happy with the images you have seen from the camera then I would just stick with that. 

I slightly disagree on the high iso ability though. Although shooting wide open, 6400 iso is plenty in most situations for the reason you stated, the ability to shoot a pretty clean image at 25k iso is helpful as it allows more depth of field at hand holdable shutter speeds. It changes the way you shoot indoors/lower light. It also allows you to use more lenses with slower maximum apertures in these scenarios. These are the main reasons I am contemplating a Monochrom purchase. 

You're probably right, but I want to approach the photography as basic as possible, mainly wide open portraits in public situations.  I am not very sure the M11M will help me, it needs shorter shutter speeds which kind of annoys me, while it freezes everything that happens real life.

 

[costa43]

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4 minutes ago, LeAlain said:

You're probably right, but I want to approach the photography as basic as possible, mainly wide open portraits in public situations.  I am not very sure the M11M will help me, it needs shorter shutter speeds which kind of annoys me, while it freezes everything that happens real life.

 

The m10 is a fine choice and you already love the images you have seen. If you did go for a monochrom then the M246 might be something to consider. It’s a bit fat but ticks a lot of boxes. Price, iso is good to 12500, lower megapixels, battery life. An underrated camera. 
 

[evikne]

13 minutes ago, LeAlain said:

I would prefer an M10M over a M10, but the price difference is quite hughe. A used M10M will cost me prob. 6K. I Can obtain the M10 (silver one) for a very reasonable price (with a year guarantee). Pricedifference is almost 2500

What do you consider the advantages of an M10M?

The M10M has a quieter shutter than the regular M10 and better ISO capabilities, as already mentioned. In addition, many people talk about a different “mindset” when shooting in native B&W. I have no experience with any Monochrom myself, but others can probably explain better.

[costa43]

Just now, evikne said:

The M10M has a quieter shutter than the regular M10 and better ISO capabilities, as already mentioned. In addition, many people talk about a different “mindset” when shooting in native B&W. I have no experience with any Monochrom myself, but others can probably explain better.

In addition it has a 40mp sensor over the 24mp. I’ve used the m10r extensively which is its colour sibling and it does require a higher shutter speed for a tack sharp image than its 24mp counterpart. May or may not be a dealbreaker for the OP. 

[LeAlain]

9 minutes ago, costa43 said:

In addition it has a 40mp sensor over the 24mp. I’ve used the m10r extensively which is its colour sibling and it does require a higher shutter speed for a tack sharp image than its 24mp counterpart. May or may not be a dealbreaker for the OP. 

This is exactly my concern, I don't want to use a higher shutter speed, because it freezes everything, there is no movement left. 

Can you tell me a bit more about your experience?

I don't care about a different shutter sound or 'thinking in b&W' because I can do that regardless of the camera, I am just very curious about user experience and image output.  

I am pleased with the 6400 ISO noise from the M10, I am a little afraid the M10M might look to clean. I come from the film era, where I would use grain as a tool rather then to avoid it.

45 minutes ago, costa43 said:

You’ve already decided it seems 😀 

The m10 is fantastic. If you are already really happy with the images you have seen from the camera then I would just stick with that. 

I slightly disagree on the high iso ability though. Although shooting wide open, 6400 iso is plenty in most situations for the reason you stated, the ability to shoot a pretty clean image at 25k iso is helpful as it allows more depth of field at hand holdable shutter speeds. It changes the way you shoot indoors/lower light. It also allows you to use more lenses with slower maximum apertures in these scenarios. These are the main reasons I am contemplating a Monochrom purchase. 

You're probably right, but I want to approach the photography as basic as possible, mainly wide open portraits in public situations.  I am not very sure the M10M will help me, it needs shorter shutter speeds which kind of annoys me, while it freezes everything that happens real life.

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by LeAlain

[250swb]

I didn't really see @LeAlain's point as a question, just a statement.

But of course the M10 is better than an M10M for B&W, if you understand the post processing and use software like Silver Efex Pro to adjust the tonal range which you can just by using such things as colour filters in post rather than onto the lens of an M10M. And you can do it in the comfort of your editing suite/desk with perfect hindsight. There is now on real positive for the Monochrom range after the initial MM because all they do is neuter the image and encourage bland photographs which is not what B&W is about, which would be expression, emotion, graphic quality, tonal compression, and all the things related to the sort of B&W imagery people would have chosen with a film and the qualities it was loved for.

[costa43]

6 minutes ago, LeAlain said:

I am pleased with the 6400 ISO noise from the M10, I am a little afraid the M10M might look to clean. I come from the film era, where I would use grain as a tool rather then to avoid it.

If you use grain as a tool then you can always shoot at an iso that gives you a look you find pleasing on a specific camera, or add grain in post.

Regarding my experience with the 40mp sensor, I would say it is technically the better sensor but I prefer images shot with lower resolution sensors as I also like a more organic feeling image and feel that lower megapixel cameras give me more of what I’m after with my vintage lenses; a view not shared by everyone.

I do think the m10/m10p is the sweet spot camera when it comes to the M and is the best all rounder. 

[LeAlain]

20 minutes ago, costa43 said:

If you use grain as a tool then you can always shoot at an iso that gives you a look you find pleasing on a specific camera, or add grain in post.

Regarding my experience with the 40mp sensor, I would say it is technically the better sensor but I prefer images shot with lower resolution sensors as I also like a more organic feeling image and feel that lower megapixel cameras give me more of what I’m after with my vintage lenses; a view not shared by everyone.

I do think the m10/m10p is the sweet spot camera when it comes to the M and is the best all rounder. 

I think I do agree, I also like the fact that I can start making photographs with my M10 instead of talking about it. I appreciate your help.

[erl]

Well chosen.

[graphlex]

You might also look at the M240, which I thought produced better b&w files than my m10.

[3D-Kraft.com]

@LeAlain: As you say, you are no "pixel peeper", I do not see the point why higher sensor resolutions require shorter shutter times for you. If the movement of the camera is the same, also the movemen in the picture hast the same amount. Only when you start pixel peeping, you will see the difference.

Are you sure, you want an optical rangefinder? Otherwise, a Sony A7CII or A7CR may come closer to your requirement "wanting a camera that is as light as possible, as small as possible and with the best image output" and you pay less for a new one compared to a used M10. It depends on the lenses, which will deliver the better IQ.

Edited December 17, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[costa43]

In my experience, motion blur on higher megapixel cameras from lower shutter speeds is real without pixel peeping. I did a lot better handholding my old m8/m9 than the m10r using the same glass. 

[AceVentura1986]

I’ve got an M10P and an M10M. IMHO, blur caused by camera shaking at lower shutter speeds is a bit overblown at 40mpx (M10M and M10R) but def a serious consideration w the M11. I shot them both before committing to the M10 platform. 

Can you get excellent BW from an M10 thru Lightroom magic? Yes, def. Will it equal the M10M at the pixel level? Usually no, the M10M just has too many advantages in this regard.  For example, I can push an M10M file a full five stops in LR without generating any artifacts or banding whereas I’m more limited w the M10P, generally to about 2-3 stops max. For some, that may be a significant issue; for others, maybe not so much. 

Does this ultimately matter? That depends on the user. It mattered enough to me that I replaced my ME and M9M w the M19P and M10M. Of course, YMMV. 

[charlesphoto99]

The M10M rules if you need to use iso 6400 and above (I often shoot bands etc at 25 or 50K iso). And in general, as said above, the files are much more malleable than a plain M10, which is a good thing because the M10M files can be pretty flat and 'boring' straight out of the camera. That said, one loses the ability to adjust color channels for b&w like one can do with a color camera conversion. The M10 is a great camera, and few truly need more than it can offer. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgh]

I shot my M10 almost exclusively set to black and white jpg with automatic monochrome raw conversions for downloading for almost 2 years before I got an M10 monochrome. M10 makes very nice monochrome images for many situations but its sensor has real shortcomings compared with the M10M. If you can live with a camera that will work well enough for like…90% of situations, it’s not a bad choice. If it gets to be make or break with some images, it will let you down on occasion and you just have to know that. I would not call noise characteristics on an iso 6400 image from an M10 beautiful. It’s not a huge deal if the picture is strong enough, but it’s not a positive. The M10 Mono would handle that picture much better. The M10 Mono isn’t perfect…on a few occasions you may miss the color channel conversions possible with a color camera. No free lunch. 

The shutter on the monochrome is a lot more pleasant too, although this is not a reason to get it to my mind.