Low Light: M10P vs M246 Monochrom

[Chris W]

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I'm typically shooting between ISO 3200 and 6400, often with a very slow shutter, which blurs if I wobble, or if someone in the picture moves.

So many interior spaces are very low light these days (clubs, concert halls, restaurants).

What might give me the better image in such low light between an M10P and a M246....given the compromise that one offers a colour option and the other doesn't.

[overexposed]

Most likely the 246 will be a bit better.

And the M10M is MUCH better, its really joy to see how low the noise is and how much you can push shadows

[AceVentura1986]

I have an M10P and an M10M. While the M10P is no slouch re higher ISOs, as @overexposed said the M10M is outstanding in low light. The camera can nearly see in the dark. 

[Chris W]

The M10M is out of my budget unfortunately.

 

[overexposed]

save a month or two longer

 

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50 Noctilux wide open, 1/500th iso 12500

Edited December 12, 2024 by overexposed

[Chris W]

42 minutes ago, overexposed said:

save a month or two longer

 

Really? You think people can save $2000 in two months? For most people any M body is a financial stretch. As it happens I could pay the $5000, but already owning a Hassleblad X1D2 and not being a professional photographer I can't justify owning $10k worth of camera bodies.

[overexposed]

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29 minutes ago, Chris W said:

Really? You think people can save $2000 in two months?

yes

[Chris W]

OK, but most people are in a cost of living crisis and prioritising paying for food and heat.

But the question is about M246 vs M10, not a camera approaching twice as expensive.

[overexposed]

3 hours ago, Chris W said:

OK, but most people are in a cost of living crisis and prioritising paying for food and heat.

But the question is about M246 vs M10, not a camera approaching twice as expensive.

if you can buy a camera for 5000$ you are not in a cost of living crisis, are yer?

but the m10m is worth a 1000$ more

 

anyway, i am out

Edited December 12, 2024 by overexposed

[Luke_Miller]

I get acceptable M246 images at ISO 12500.  A bit of luminence noise that resembles film grain.  The current Denoise feature in Lightroom will remove even that without affecting detail.  

[Chris W]

I would never spend £5000+ on a sole B&W camera. I could see spending £5,000 on a do it all M10R.

The choice for me is between a £2,600 M246 Monochrome or a £3,900 M10P.

[Dazzajl]

The 246 will have better high ISO performance but the big question is would you actually be happy with a mono camera? I’m really enjoying my recent 246 purchase but that’s because it takes away some choices and forces me to create with less. 
 

The UK prices do seem quite stable, so it’s unlikely you’d loose much (if anything) by trying one and seeing how it fits. 

[Chris W]

For the work I do (not professionally) around 80% ends up B&W (converted). So it is a compromise, but at the same time limitation is the mother of invention.

Also, the Hasselblad didn't work well in low light, I was at 64,000 all the time and shooting at too slow shutter speeds. My hand is quite steady, but as soon as the subject twitched they were a blur.

[Dazzajl]

None of the medium format cameras like to be taken from their comfort zones too much do they. The GFX100 is still the best of them for all round performance and the low light performance is surprisingly much better than the 50mp cameras but it’s still an unwieldy beast and there are no fast lenses in the ecosystem for Fuji or Blad 

I suspect you’d enjoy shooting with the the 246, it’s quite an addictive way of working, has that extra ISO reach, some great value fast lenses available from Voightlander and Ttartisan etc, and it looks cool as too. 
 

This is a test shot from a few weeks ago at ISO 12500 and has had no noise reduction at all. 
 

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[Chris W]

Thanks.

I've had an M6 and an M240 in the past. I have some good M lenses.

The Hasselblad took some fabulous photos in low light when I was traveling recently, but I lost a lot of shots due to blur, where an M body and small lens would be easier to keep steady at slow shutter speeds.

[adan]

A B&W conversion from either 24MP "color" M10 (plain or -P) will equal or outperform the 24MP M246 at higher ISOs.

The M246 was "king of the ISO heap" - 10 years ago. The all-new 2017 M10 sensor surpassed the M240/246s' low-light capability, in both color, and in B&W conversions, by about 1 stop (doubling of ISO). 

The key lies in when noise "banding" kicks in - which artifact-pattern is much harder to "erase" or reduce than simple evenly-scattered noise speckles. The 240/246 sensor-family was prone to more banding.

Plus you get the advantage of still being able to adjust gray tones according to color (independently make colors lighter or darker grays in conversion). Instead of adding light-gobbling colored filters to the lens itself to do so, with the M246.

Other M10 benefits: •significantly more compact, •marginally lighter (about 20 grams), •totally revised RF/VF (0.73 mag, more stable calibration, user-adjustable if it does ever need calibrating), •much quieter, low-impact shutter (in the M10-P only).

M246 benefits - video

Picture below made a week ago with original M10 at ISO 10000, brightened a bit to about EI 16000 equivalent, with tiny C/V 21mm f/4 lens, and 1/180 sec to minimize subject motion. In a really dark, grundgy "arts coop" venue.

I actually have an M10-M as well (found a great deal pre-owned) - but rarely use it, since I often want the option of color when needed. But if clean ISO 50000 is needed........

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Edited December 15, 2024 by adan

[adan]

Another M10 low-low light picture (some incipient banding at EI 50000 or so).

"Hello, Sergeant!" Riot cops outdoors at night - May 2020, M10 ISO 10000, 135mm f/4 Tele-Elmar, f/4 at 1/180th sec., pushed additionally (and very carefully!) in Camera Raw/Photoshop by 2.15 stops. Vertical ("half-frame") crop from horizontal frame. Converted from RGB.

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Edited December 15, 2024 by adan

[Chris W]

Oh ok, thanks. That is sort of opposite the prevailing online opinion, but probably the banding thing hasn't been considered enough.

[Dazzajl]

The M10 noise in those shots at 10000 ISO is considerably higher and less attractive than the 246 displays at 12500

Sensors without colour filters simply do a better job in low light conditions 

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[AceVentura1986]

19 hours ago, Dazzajl said:

The M10 noise in those shots at 10000 ISO is considerably higher and less attractive than the 246 displays at 12500

Sensors without colour filters simply do a better job in low light conditions 

Yes, exactly right. The Bayer color filter extracts at least one, maybe up to two stops of light. Add to that the need to demosaic the pixelated image and you’ll def experience chroma and luminescence noise plus artifacts and maybe even banding. None of this applies to dedicated mono sensors.