Why I love and hate the Leica M

[evikne]

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40 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

IMO it’s maybe highlighting an opening for a new model in Leicas range, or a split-off of the M line. Pointing people towards the SL or Q lines instead of the M, as a way of having a better Leica experience for automated features probably misses the point. An SL is essentially a big mirrorless camera - I’d guess many people buying an M have used similar and are trying an M specifically to move away from that bulky system. A Q is more compact but still a very chunky fixed lens camera. There are many competing options from nearly all major manufacturers in both systems - most arguably offering far better technology, value and support. The M isn’t just about a pure rangefinder experience for many newer users, it’s also the compact size and lens choices.  Not everyone wants to give up everything for that, I think an interchangeable lens Q3 or more technically advanced M would suit many people - probably not the membership of this forum, but  outside the bubble.

I think the M line has already gone too far in its technical evolution. One possibility could be to split it into two opposite directions: An EVF-M with everything that can be put inside by modern stuff, and an M Classic, which is as close to a film-M as possible, and can also be merged with the screenless D-line.

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[lct]

25 minutes ago, evikne said:

I think the M line has already gone too far in its technical evolution. One possibility could be to split it into two opposite directions: An EVF-M with everything that can be put inside by modern stuff, and an M Classic, which is as close to a film-M as possible, and can also be merged with the screenless D-line.

An EVF-M would interest me but i would miss a modern rangefinder in the same vein as the M11 with more speed and IBIS. M Classic? I can understand why it could please you and other colleagues here but thanks no thanks i got plenty enough legacy Ms already. I kept my M240 as backup in case i would keep some nostalgia but i use it occasionally only. But it's just me 😎

Edited December 3, 2024 by lct

[evikne]

10 minutes ago, lct said:

An EVF-M would interest me but i would miss a modern rangefinder in the same vein as the M11 with more speed and IBIS. M Classic? I can understand why it could please you and other colleagues here but thanks no thanks i got plenty enough legacy Ms already. I kept my M240 as backup in case i would keep some nostalgia but i use it occasionally only. But it's just me 😎

Another option, of course, is to have three lines: A hi-tech EVF-M, a retro Classic line, and something in between, like the one we have today. But it remains to be seen how many M lines Leica can keep going at the same time.

[Dazzajl]

Leica are in a very tough place with the M line. It’s already both too modern and not modern enough, with that gap only set to become more of a chasm as technology marches forward. 
 

The only choices I can see for them moving forwards are very tough ones and from a business strategy point of view could end up having to ditch the hardcore following and merge the M and Q lines. 

[lct]

1 minute ago, evikne said:

Another option, of course, is to have three lines: A hi-tech EVF-M, a retro Classic line, and something in between, like the one we have today. But it remains to be seen how many M lines Leica can keep going at the same time.

Little chance of Leica keeping these 3 lines, I'm afraid. There wouldn't be enough demand for that. If Leica were interested in the classic line, they would have kept the M10-R, i guess. As for the EVF-M, even if it would interest me, it could only be a variant without RF, not the M12 itself, which can only be an RF. Just my 2 cents.

[charlesphoto99]

Unfortunately, Leica dropped the ball on the 'classic' aspect of the camera a long time ago. There is/was a lot that could be done, that would appeal to the purists like myself, and to newer tech oriented users. My dream  D-M Classic:

Near instant startup/wake from standby times for one. Re-arranged or user choice metering info in the VF i.e.choice of classic center arrows, or arrows to one side, shutter speed info to the other. Inability to see what shutter speed you're at when in dark situations (like photographing a stage) has always been a 'classic' problem, esp with black bodies. Function buttons that actually map to a function needed. No Auto Shutter speed or auto iso or EVF or wifi etc functions. Use that processing power for speed and reliability. 24-36mp or so sensor with great high iso. Classic shutter and metering. Black paint and/or screen less models released as options at the same time. Base plate design I'm neutral on. Essentially a digital 'New' M6. Anyway, make it $7495 or something like that, and the M-EVF model still $9K. I think it would be a hit. If truly instant wake time, it would probably even sway me from my beloved black paint M10-R. 

[eleven24]

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On 11/30/2024 at 11:54 PM, Altair said:

With that in mind, the X2D is the best camera in the world today. The lenses, especially the 55v and 90v, absolutely have the magic look, not quite as much as the best Leica lenses have but up there, and the added value of a tilt screen and autofocus make it a camera i can depend on when it matters. I used it for one day of street photography in London a few days back and used the M11 the day after. Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

I also have the X2D,and find it to be an incredible camera, especially with the new fast and lightweight V lenses. Yet it's a very deliberate camera that I found to be far less agile for street, with an AF that was difficult to manage by sliding my thumb around on the back LCD. So much so that I most often found myself turning off the AF, finding a composition and waiting for someone to walk into it. A very different experience than I have with the M where I often choose a lens that gives me 6 feet(ish) to infinity of focus to capture life as it happens on the street, while also remaining inconspicuous. 

Read elsewhere in this thread that you're newly shooting with the .95 noctilux. If this is the case, I can certainly understand why you come away frustrated with the lack of images. That's also the beauty of lenses such as that. They take time and practice to get better at using. Just like using the actual RF and not the LCD. Once you do though, and if you give it that time, I'm sure you'll look at the M11 in a completely different way. 

 

[Leslie22]

Patience is needed. 35+ years with an M , I've almost got the focusing down pat. Don't be too hard on yourself (or Leica) after such a short time.

[evikne]

I learned techniques to focus wide open with a Summilux and Noctilux in a short time. 

But how to make the best use of my old, quirky lenses - that's something I'm still experimenting with, after several years.

Edited December 4, 2024 by evikne

[Jeff S]

On 12/2/2024 at 6:46 AM, thrid said:

Luckily, I got some help from an old Hungarian photographer who worked at the local camera store (remember those?). He had been a photojournalist in a former life and had started out shooting LTM bodies, behind the Iron Curtain.

 

The late Andrew Heller in Bethesda?  Anyway, I bought my first M from his shop.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

On 12/2/2024 at 5:55 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

A week after buying the SL I was sitting in a car park in Boulogne reading the manual on my phone trying to work out why I was in video mode.

Funny you say this.  I never use video on my SL2, which I’ve owned for years. So recently when, all of a sudden, I found myself in video mode, I retreated to my nearby car to sort the issue. 🤪

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

13 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Funny you say this.  I never use video on my SL2, which I’ve owned for years. So recently when, all of a sudden, I found myself in video mode, I retreated to my nearby car to sort the issue. 🤪

Jeff

With any new camera my first instinct is to set it up and use it without referring to the manual. It's a good test of how intuitive a system is, but at times it does lead me into some frustrating situations. I don't like reading the manual - but neither do I make posts here that deserve a RTFM response!

Edited December 4, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Herr Barnack]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:08 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

As well as adding a tilt screen, Leica should ditch the rangefinder, add autofocus and image stabilisation, and replace those old school manual dials and rings with rocker switches, finally allowing full Program Mode P&S. Raw images are too complicated for today's generation of ageing M owners, so go full-fat Das Wesentliche with JPG only and Leica Looks.

There. Done it.

You forgot to add atomic clock, short wave radio and egg poacher.

[charlesphoto99]

48 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Funny you say this.  I never use video on my SL2, which I’ve owned for years. So recently when, all of a sudden, I found myself in video mode, I retreated to my nearby car to sort the issue. 🤪

Jeff

We just bought a Toyota RAV4 with all of the bells and whistles. I have to say, getting used to the 'safety' features was one of the unsafest things I've done in awhile. Too much distraction going on with the big multimedia screen and cameras everywhere. Still not sure what many of the dash settings are or what certain buttons do. When one instinctively knows how to drive, and have been doing it well forever, those extras can just get in the way. The worst is the EVF rearview mirror. I thought I was going to have a seizure during the test drive and had to pull over and figure out how to turn that damn thing off (I can see it's occasional use if one fills up the back blocking visibility). 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

We just bought a Toyota RAV4 with all of the bells and whistles. I have to say, getting used to the 'safety' features was one of the unsafest things I've done in awhile. Too much distraction going on with the big multimedia screen and cameras everywhere. Still not sure what many of the dash settings are or what certain buttons do. When one instinctively knows how to drive, and have been doing it well forever, those extras can just get in the way. The worst is the EVF rearview mirror. I thought I was going to have a seizure during the test drive and had to pull over and figure out how to turn that damn thing off (I can see it's occasional use if one fills up the back blocking visibility). 

Indeed.  Volvo, for example, which has always prided itself on safety (crash protection, etc) is now one of the un-safest brands IMO, as virtually everything is controlled by distracting screen menus, including even simple climate controls.  Give me knobs and buttons any day.

Most all manufacturers have followed a similarly unfortunate trend.  That, and glossy piano black surfaces everywhere that never stay clean.

Jeff

[charlesphoto99]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Indeed.  Volvo, for example, which has always prided itself on safety (crash protection, etc) is now one of the un-safest brands IMO, as virtually everything is controlled by distracting screen menus, including even simple climate controls.  Give me knobs and buttons any day.

Most all manufacturers have followed a similarly unfortunate trend.  That, and glossy piano black surfaces everywhere that never stay clean.

Jeff

Yep. And just last week three kids burned alive in a CyberTruck because there were NO DOOR HANDLES!!!

There's a term for over reliance on technology but it's slipping my mind (guess I should Google that, lol). I heard a piece on the radio last year talking with an author who wrote a book about it. Simple things even, like not actually understanding how a map works, because now directions are just spoken to us. 

[evikne]

On my old Nokia, I could type messages quickly without looking at the keys.

On my iPhone, I make mistakes all the time and rely on autocorrect. Is that progress?

Edited December 4, 2024 by evikne

[Corius]

3 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Yep. And just last week three kids burned alive in a CyberTruck because there were NO DOOR HANDLES!!!

There's a term for over reliance on technology but it's slipping my mind (guess I should Google that, lol). I heard a piece on the radio last year talking with an author who wrote a book about it. Simple things even, like not actually understanding how a map works, because now directions are just spoken to us. 

I read a psychology article a few years ago which proposed that the real reason old people despair about new technology and can't understand youth or new social etiquettes is that  we are programmed to feel this way so that we welcome death as a blessed relief. I found that quite reassuring

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[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

There's a term for over reliance on technology but it's slipping my mind (guess I should Google that, lol). I heard a piece on the radio last year talking with an author who wrote a book about it. Simple things even, like not actually understanding how a map works, because now directions are just spoken to us. 

This phenomenon has infiltrated our lives in myriad ways, including our politics.  People increasingly lack critical thinking skills and are prone to rely on and trust what they read (from select, friendly sources), without questioning its accuracy.

Jeff

[costa43]

13 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

This phenomenon has infiltrated our lives in myriad ways, including our politics.  People increasingly lack critical thinking skills and are prone to rely on and trust what they read (from select, friendly sources), without questioning its accuracy.

Jeff

+1

Totally agree. People tend to just regurgitate what they hear as gospel without questioning anything. The craziest thing is they defend their opinion to the hilt if it’s questioned yet they never question it themselves.