Why I love and hate the Leica M

[Altair]

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On 12/25/2024 at 8:49 PM, jaapv said:

To me a camera is a tool, not a toy…or if you will a means to an end. 

Good for you, that's the right way to go about it.

Unfortunately for my personal finances, I am a very superficial person when it comes to material acquisitions. I like nice things, always have, always will.

 

 

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[Altair]

Having finally gotten over a bad flu, I finally had a chance and the will to go out and do some street photography testing. I was curious how my three current setups, a Leica M11P with 35 APO, a X2D with 55V, and a Z0 with 35 1.8 S (did not intend on including the latter, but long story short got the 35 1.8 for free on a voucher and decided to see the results even though the Z9 is too large for street photography)

I am uploading a few sample images taken of the same subjects with the same settings wide open and at 5.6 as shot, straight out of camera, only converted to JPG, no editing whatsoever in case someone is curious.

 

Will do the Nikon first, Leica second, and Hasselblad last.

 

[Altair]

Nikon

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/irh7n6f7u1doa2urcd15j/DSC_0228.jpg?rlkey=wxfg658jqcjpkxmt642qh7ac8&st=6w307799&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6lum4vgqvsot2fv688i3e/DSC_0225.jpg?rlkey=vvqq8tq90rvc8mb2wi4wkdlem&st=sqhdm6ty&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3k9mpzrk5zy7kp3rrb4j/DSC_0213.jpg?rlkey=hftvoag0fx8fx3upyzku5p8fq&st=hdigdyhz&dl=0

Edited December 31, 2024 by Altair

[Altair]

Leica

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0zsg33t6wql1nv03j71oe/leica1.jpg?rlkey=ldi23fr2u4c5cji9e42jmxuia&st=fgng8mh8&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/291mzr8j1ehtyszsljuxg/leica2.jpg?rlkey=lrtpljh5llshp5uftgcjz4vkl&st=7816unum&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/47n2iscxka8h3zm21dlxk/leica3.jpg?rlkey=38v7zrcsw0w2m7yeczz2mdlgd&st=1jw6y7v5&dl=0

Edited December 31, 2024 by Altair

[Altair]

Hasselblad

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/twh499s63tbd9952px6x7/hass1.jpg?rlkey=gnze9co6fkizft9lbgvyyxuzf&st=konajck2&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/swymlvxwd7wmwqbmn3365/hass2.jpg?rlkey=eg1tg3b68z6mbg9j97edl97s3&st=jsvaqzs8&dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3qgz0f6km5gd3n2wguny1/hass3.jpg?rlkey=94is6f4nmrh6gqmxwdq7m532r&st=1064scwo&dl=0

 

 

 

[Altair]

I do apologise for not being able to embed the links directly, would have liked them to appear immediately instead of having fo be clicked on but the forum did not like those links for some reason. Will figure out out later.

There are many more pictures from about 2 hours of street photography, all shot wide open or at 5.6 depending on the scene. Unless I am doing architecture I rarely go beyond 5.6. I did not want to overload rhe forum with too many pictures but if there is interest will post more comparative images. The conclusion is the same though.

I am posting my thoughts here.

The Nikon was my least favorite option as expected. It is very very fast, AF is otherworldly accurate ( insane! ) but the images left me underwhelmed, they are unbelievably sharp corner to corner with no corrections having to be made, which is very respectable for a sub 1000 USD lens. The out focus rendering and transitions leave allot to be desired for my tastes though, and the colours are neither the most realistic nor the most impactfull straight out of camera. This would apply to all Japanese manufactures I would assume based on previous experiences. Maybe the latest Sony G lenses would be better street lenses. The setup is also very very large and heavy. Even if I had a smaller body such as the ZF or Z8, the lens itself is huge, it was obviously designed with sharpness and value as the main considerations, artistic rendering was not the goal here. Nikon have made and currently have some truly great lenses including the Plena, the Noct, the 400 2.8 etc, but this is not one of them and will be sold shortly.

 

The Leica pictures came out absolutely beutifull, I am beyond impressed by the 35 APO, stunning lens! Although it doesn't have the character or rendering charm of the 35 Summilux or the 50 Noctilux for example it still has tremendous artistic qualities to the images when shot wide open and is very pleasing in that regard, in terms of sharpness and correction it is simply the most perfect lens one could ever hope for. I don't pixel peep but did so during this testing and the 35 APO never failed to amaze. It is also very compact and it's weight is perfectly balanced. I was wondering if I would regret getting the APO instead of the 35 Summilux, but now am convinced the perfect combination would be a 35 APO and a 50 Summilux, at least for my preferences and desired picture qualities. I repeat, the world's finest street photography lens. Period.

I am also happy to report that my hit rate was 100%. Absolutely every picture was in focus and tack sharp using only the range finder even shot wide open at F2. The 35 APO is an easy lens to use and a delight for street photography.

The X2D was also remarkable in its own way. I had used the same camera previously with the 45P lens, which I had assumed would be a great street photography setup, and it was, but it didn't quite get me the results I wanted wide open. At 5.6 and above it is fantastic though. If portability and shooting at higher f stops is what you are after it is a great option and value at 950 USD.

 

For me though, I used the 55V today as my street photography lens and it was an absolute dream.. the out of focus rendering ir bokeh is stunning! On par with the Summilux or even approaching 50 Noctilux! It is also tremendously sharp and focus speed is respectable for my usage. A great value as well. The 45p is joining the Nikon 35 in the chopping block as the size reduction and weight saving is not significant enough to sacrifice the otherworldly magic that the 55V churns out image after image. The 35 APO is sharper gut we are comparing apples to oranges here.

 

Looking at the 55V images when shot wide open at 2.5, I have come to the realisation that attempting to translate medium format numbers, whether F stop or perspective, is useless. It's a different world and the rules are unique. Just look at that shallow DoF at 2.5! That's 1.2 Noctilux DoF for my eyes.

 

I apologise for the long winded post, I wanted to be comprehensive with my impressions.

 

The foster of it, Leica and Hassleblad are magical cameras with truly stunning lens selections available 

 

 

 

 

[otto.f]

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Thanks for your test Altair! Anyway, your shots prove that the X2D brings the most realistic colors. I'm a bit disappointed by the Nikon colors, I had expected  they were more neutral, but they have quite some oversaturation. Leica has won the Razzi here.

[Altair]

Regarding my personal development with the M system. I am beyond happy to report that in less than 2 months with an average of 5 hours shooting per week approximately i have completely mastered the rangefinder system on F2 in a 35 and 50 mm lenses. 1.4 is hit and miss and that's very acceptable. For those who have not ventured into rangefinder photography and are hesitant due to fears of not being able to use it as effectively as AF enabled cameras with an EVF. I can tell you that I have less than perfect eye sight and am advanced somewhat in age, was very doubtful i would ever be able to master it, and now have a higher successfully rate than with my auto focus cameras. I am still not as quick but speed is very much within desired limits. I assume this progress would have been expedited further if I controlled myself and went with one lens only but that still proves how achievable it is to master this focusing method. I was very surprised that my images yesterday with the APO 35 and M11 where 100% tack sharp even zoomed in to the absolute maximum before pixilization occurs. I had a lower success rate in the X2D replying on the AF! Again, absolutely delighted with this progress and enjoying this form of photography and wanted to share my excitement. Attached are two 500% cropped images. The first has the focus on the Spirit of Exctasy wings and the second on the head. In addition to the extreme shallow DoF the beutifull rendering and the very sharp in focus areas and details. If it user obvious, I am very happy with this progress and look forward to how I fare in the coming months.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 31, 2024 by Altair

[Altair]

21 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Thanks for your test Altair! Anyway, your shots prove that the X2D brings the most realistic colors. I'm a bit disappointed by the Nikon colors, I had expected  they were more neutral, but they have quite some oversaturation. Leica has won the Razzi here.

My pleasure. I am planning a test shoot next weekend at a local suit tailor where I will test several types of photography including street, portraiture, product, and architecture. This is to practice for my upcoming coffee table book project. I plan on using all three systems and will post results here.

 

I concur in your comments regarding Nikon, I was always a Nikon guy but find myself underwhelmed since I have picked up the Hassleblad and Leica systems. They still rain supreme when it.comes to wildlife with their auto detect AF and 400 2.8 though. Post processing can compensate for the lack of colour accuracy to an extent.

 

 

[DigitalHeMan]

23 hours ago, Altair said:

I do apologise for not being able to embed the links directly, would have liked them to appear immediately instead of having fo be clicked on but the forum did not like those links for some reason. Will figure out out later.

Check the post here for details on how to post images. In theory you can link to external sites (use the other media link in the bottom right of the post editor) but I don't think it works with Dropbox anyway, and the forum prefers images to be posted directly here. You may however run into size-limitation issues with some of the larger images you have linked above.

[DigitalHeMan]

On 12/31/2024 at 10:43 AM, Altair said:

I would like to get a dedicated film Leica that I can use with no reservations. I am between the M6 reissue, which is a rather steep investment, or the original TTL titanium M6. the latter is a more affordable option by about 2k and as a titanium Leica would add some visual diversity to my lineup as well as being a more durable finish, but do we know if an excellent condition Titan M6 from the early 2000s is as smooth and dependable as a 2023 M6 reissue? For those in the know, which would you choose? Greatly appreciate any and all advice.

I think any manual Leica camera manufactured in the past year or two is going to be 'smoother' than an M6 from the late 1990s or early 2000s. However I don't think you'll feel a difference if you purchase an older M6 and put it through a full CLA (Clean, lubricate, adjust) - mechanically it will feel like new again. It is worth pointing out though that the light meter on the M6 TTL models have can no longer be repaired 'officially'. There is one exception to that though - Amsterdam Camera Repairs has just designed an upgraded meter circuit for the TTL which replaces (and improves) upon the original TTL meter. However, unless you are planning to use the camera with flash, which benefits the most from the TTL metering, just get a 'regular' M6 - either original with a CLA, or a reissue.

Another option for you to consider would be a Leica MP - which has a built-in light meter and arguably 'looks' nicer than a regular M6, if that's important.

[Altair]

19 hours ago, DigitalHeMan said:

I think any manual Leica camera manufactured in the past year or two is going to be 'smoother' than an M6 from the late 1990s or early 2000s. However I don't think you'll feel a difference if you purchase an older M6 and put it through a full CLA (Clean, lubricate, adjust) - mechanically it will feel like new again. It is worth pointing out though that the light meter on the M6 TTL models have can no longer be repaired 'officially'. There is one exception to that though - Amsterdam Camera Repairs has just designed an upgraded meter circuit for the TTL which replaces (and improves) upon the original TTL meter. However, unless you are planning to use the camera with flash, which benefits the most from the TTL metering, just get a 'regular' M6 - either original with a CLA, or a reissue.

Another option for you to consider would be a Leica MP - which has a built-in light meter and arguably 'looks' nicer than a regular M6, if that's important.

Thank you for the great advice. I actually met a Leica collector and he had me over to his home museum to see his very respectable collection of Leica equipment and memorabilia, a truly eye opening experience and a very knowledgeable person indeed. I left with a new found list for the titanium M6 with the tan leather skin limited edition and the Mandler 75 Summilux. I knew then and there I had to get both and was fortunate to find a NOS in box titanium M6 for a price very close to the M6 reissue. The original is far more desirable as far as I am concerned.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196916453268

 

That's the one I picked up. All I need is recommendation on film. Which film types would you say are a good match to these lenses:

50 Noct 0.95

75 Mandler 1.4

35 Steel Rim Reissue

28 Summaron

Both colour and B&W

I will probably test out my other lenses namely the 35 APO and the 50 Lux but for now will stick to the four I feel have a character that would complement film best.

 

Glad I tried the Mandler 75. Glorious lens and complements the setup I have perfectly, and is a quarter of the price of the 75 Noct I was planning for in the future. Amazing output from that lens, the combination of that vibrant yet dreamy character with the vintage near-noct rendering is simply addictive for portraits. The Hasselblad 90V I own is a far more perfect controlled and corrected lens and would be the choice for a professional photographer, but i far far prefer the emotional impact of the Leica Mandler 75. I also find it's results more pleasing that the 75 Noct even. 

 

 

 

[Altair]

This is the Mandler 75 I just bought today.

 

I have asked my Leica store to lend me both the 75 Noct and APO and will be doing a head to head portrait comparison with the Mandler 75 completing the set. 

Now that I think about it, will include the Hassleblad 90V and 75P as well as the Nikon Plena. They are not the same focal length as the Leicas, but are the best Portrait lenses in their respective systems and some, including me, would say the best overall.

 

The 90V is going to come ahead as the perfect portrait lens , the Mandler as the most pleasing and interesting. I might know the result but very keen to see comparable condition results all the same

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Altair:

I have asked my Leica store to lend me both the 75 Noct and APO and will be doing a head to head portrait comparison with the Mandler 75 completing the set.

I agree that the Mandler 75 Summilux has a pleasing rendering but I am afraid, you will have an even harder time with focussing. I do not own a copy of the 75 Summilux, but checked a lot of reviews and reports about it before I decided for the 75 Noctilux. To me, it looks like calibration is not consistent accross the whole distance range from minimum focal distance to infinity. You may be lucky that the distance of your test / comparison shots meets the point, where the calibration fits to the camera. So my recommendation is, to make comparison shots at different distances.

The Noctilux may be more difficult to focus due to the even shallower depth of field at f/1.25, but it is more consistent and reliable. And I am pretty sure, that the results from the 75 Noctilux (sharpness, contrast, CA correction, bokeh rendering) will convince you more, if you are willing to carry the extra weight.

Edited January 2 by 3D-Kraft.com

[Altair]

2 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I agree that the Mandler 75 Summilux has a pleasing rendering but I am afraid, you will have an even harder time with focussing. I do not own a copy of the 75 Summilux, but checked a lot of reviews and reports about it before I decided for the 75 Noctilux. To me, it looks like calibration is not consistent accross the whole distance range from minimum focal distance to infinity. You may be lucky that the distance of your test / comparison shots meets the point, where the calibration fits to the camera. So my recommendation is, to make comparison shots at different distances.

The Noctilux may be more difficult to focus due to the even shallower depth of field at f/1.25, but it is more consistent and reliable. And I am pretty sure, that the results from the 75 Noctilux (sharpness, contrast, CA correction, bokeh rendering) will convince you more, if you are willing to carry the extra weight.

Thank you for your feedback and for the observations regarding the 75 Mandler. I was told to avoid the Canadian early versions and to specifically look for a later German made model (11810) which reportedly outresolves the earlier Canadian versions and is  consistent across the focusing range. I definitely will not be using this lens with my M but the upcoming SL3S. As far as my own comfort level with the M, my comfort range is 28, 35, and 50 MM lenses. I can use those three focal ranges without the Visoflex and comfortably focus up to 2 ( can get away with 1.4 and I suspect will be comfortable with time and practice )

Anything wider I would rely on the X2D, longer would be the SL3S and X2D depending on requirements and target look. The Noctilux 0.95 and Mandler 75 will definitely be used exclusively with the SL3S. 

I actually wrote down a breakdown of my ideal lens list and distribution. Almost there!

 

M
28 summaron
28 zeiss 1.4

35 apo
35 lux steel rim

50 lux


SL3S
50 Noct
75 Noct or Mandler

X2D
20-35E
55V
90V

Z9
Plena
400 2.8

 

The Nikon part of the equation might be chopped off the block. As enamored I was with that lens and the Z9s wildlife possibilities, this is the least important to me and the financial and time considerations of abandoning that area and system would open up the possibility of getting the SL3S and both the 75 Noct and Mandler. Very tempting. On the other hand the 400 2.8 and Z9 are a whole other ball game and open up entirely different and very enjoyable opportunities, sports and wildlife at their very best. Decision decisions.

I will be testing the previously discussed lenses and be back after the tailor photo shoot to share results. I am very much looking forward to hearing the collectives thoughts on film types to use with the lenses I had mentioned and appreciate any advice regarding using that specific camera and lenses!

 

By the way, congratulations on acquiring the 75 Noctilux. It is a truly great lens, even though I have only had a brief time to see what it can do i was taken back by how it straddles both the sharpness and modern aspects of lens design such as high micro contrast and excellent correctios with the traditional beutifull rendering you would get with a lens such as the 50 Noctilux. A truly striking lens and no doubt a finer lens overall than any I have used up to this point. If I was going to decide on a smaller overall collection of optics this would be a definite addition, but for those looking to diversify and get several lenses a 50 Noctilux a 75 Mandler might be a better option overall. Your point regarding usability is a very valid one, and even the best German made samples will not come close to the modern implementations. I had chosen the steel rim reissue over the original for this very same reason. It is interesting to note that Peter Karber is not a fan of the 75 Mandler for some reason, do we know what his actual opinion is? I am curious to see why. It is probably related to your note.

 

I would liken this decision point to another I had to make in the world of Hassleblad, I had a tough time choosing a portrait lens and was torn between the 90V 2.5 and the 80 1.8. The 80 was what I would go for if I followed my heart, it is a wonderful lens with otherworldly rendering but it is an older design, quite difficult to focus, it's AF is so problematic manual focus, as challenging as it was, was still better, and it had so many specifics you really can't just have it as part of a larger set of optics and expect to reasonably master it to any extent. The 80 1.8 demanded focus and practice but rewards with very very unique and wonderfully pleasing and artistic results. I went with the sensible option and chose the 90V, which although not quite as unique or rewarding is a truly modern design and practical drives itself so to speak in terms of both focusing and your mindset when deciding on target results, the 90V has nothing outside the ordinary but every aspect from sharpness to seperation to rendering is supremely high.

I would liken the 90V to the 75 Noctilux and the 80 1.8 to the Mandler 75. I was sensible with the Hasselblad system as it will serve as my main portrait setup, in my Leica collection of optics I have a far more experimental mindset with a desire for unique looks, hence the Summaron 28, steel rim 35, and upcoming Light Lens Lab 50 1.2 etc. 

 

I do apologise for these long winded posts, I very much enjoy this aspect of the hobby ( what different lens designs can bring to the hobby) and how building a set of lenses could afford a world of possibilities in terms looks. This is the part of the hobby that really excites me and gets me shooting more, trying to discover what can be done with these different optical designs and how can they be appreciated 

 

I am thoroughly pumped to do the portrait comparison, I have a journal where I am noting down the type of looks I would like to get with each lens. I will be back in 2 weeks with a set of images that I hope we will all find enjoyable, a proving ground for these fine optics.

Edited January 2 by Altair

[Altair]

I am sure my previous post is going to trigger a few people, so a preemptive disclaimer might be in order.

 

I am not, nor am I trying to become, a great photographer. My appreciation of exceptional optical design and fine build quality equals at times the joy I would get from capturing a very good ( not great ) photo.

Naturally, finding your medium and focusing on it is the quickest, and potentially only, way to master the art of photography. An objective i have not adopted. 

I would say that I am closest in mindset to the photographer and youtuber mathphotographer, who uses several high end systems and create beutifull images and not art per say.

 

I hope this covers this topic and we can put it to rest. 

[DigitalHeMan]

5 hours ago, Altair said:

This is the Mandler 75 I just bought today.

 

No picture or link attached, if you were intending to share something.

The 75mm Lux is a lens I would like to try as well. I have been using the 75mm APO Summicron and it's a great lens, however I just don't use the longer focal lengths enough on the rangefinder - only really when I'm specifically taking portraits. I have pretty good subject-background separation with the Summicron, so I would be interested to see how different the results would be with a Lux at the same focal length.

There's an interesting article regarding the 75mm Lux on Thorsten Overgaard's site. It compares the lens to various other ones, including the 50mm Noctilux. You may want to read through it if you haven't done so already  https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-75mm-Summilux-M-f-14.html 

[DigitalHeMan]

5 hours ago, Altair said:

That's the one I picked up. All I need is recommendation on film. Which film types would you say are a good match to these lenses:

 

Film choice is going to be personal, and based upon whether you want to shoot color or black and white, and whether you'll be processing at home, or sending off to a lab. For black and white my preference as always gone to Ilford - in my earlier days when I was developing my own films I would use either FP4 Plus or HP5 Plus - the latter because I could push it from the stock 400 ISO to 1600 and use it at concerts. Nowadays I'll use XP2 Super on the rare occasions that I shoot b+w film. The advantages of XP2 Super is that it's a C41 film, so can be processed by any lab (and often scanned in at the same time) and it's also got a massive exposure latitude - so although it's rated at 400 USO, Ilford say it's usable anywhere between 50 and 800 ISO on the same film, which is handy.

For color, I'm not really sure anymore. It's a lot of work to get it scanned in well and achieve the right colors, so I would tend to stick to digital for that..... 

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[Altair]

41 minutes ago, DigitalHeMan said:

No picture or link attached, if you were intending to share something.

The 75mm Lux is a lens I would like to try as well. I have been using the 75mm APO Summicron and it's a great lens, however I just don't use the longer focal lengths enough on the rangefinder - only really when I'm specifically taking portraits. I have pretty good subject-background separation with the Summicron, so I would be interested to see how different the results would be with a Lux at the same focal length.

There's an interesting article regarding the 75mm Lux on Thorsten Overgaard's site. It compares the lens to various other ones, including the 50mm Noctilux. You may want to read through it if you haven't done so already  https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-75mm-Summilux-M-f-14.html 

Sorry about that. Yes here is the listing I settled on:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235875208281

 

I do hope this copy turns out like the one I tried out yesterday! I believe it should as the production date is similar and they where both the German made variants. I was told that at the time the German made lenses where noticeably more consistent and of higher quality to the extent they out resolve the Canadian production. I have no idea if that holds water or not as I have only yesterdays experience with this specific lens.

 

Have you considered an SL 2 or 3 for the longer focal lengths? Or are you strictly a rangefinder person? My trials with the SL3 and my Noct as well as several difficult lenses ( 75, 90, 21...) opened my eyes to the fact that as enjoyable the rangefinder system is, and as effectively it is for street and "normal" 50mm loft fotography, it is far too challenging for genuinely wide or telephoto photography.

I assume this might seem like an extreme suggestion, but I travel with two camera bodies especially when my wife is with me and I know I will be doing a good amount of portraiture in addition to street or life photography. Right now it's the X2D and either the 90V or 75P lens and the M11P plus a lens in the 28 to 50mm range. This has worked  out phenomenaly well and is not difficult to manager if you get yourself a good briefcase or dedicated camera bag.

 

Post January I might do the SL3S and M11 and dedicate the X2D to landscape and studio. We will see how that turns out.

 

Thank you for the great link, have not seen that yet. Looks like great reading.

[lct]

42 minutes ago, DigitalHeMan said:

[...] I have pretty good subject-background separation with the Summicron, so I would be interested to see how different the results would be with a Lux at the same focal length [...]

• Summilux 75/1.4 @ f/2
• Summicron 75/2.0 @ f/2
• DoF comparison