Why I love and hate the Leica M

[BruceRH]

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15 hours ago, Altair said:

I love the idea of an M. Just the right size, build quality is Swiss watches standard, and the pictures, when perfectly framed and just focus, are unmatched. Even compared to a X2D, there is something magical of what an M with the right lens can do. 

My only problem with the M11 compared to my other cameras is that focusing takes a good amount of mental thought per shot, which is less time focusing on framing and composition. 

Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

I used to have a Sony A7Riv and then an A1, those are gone but I still have an A7CR which I can use my M mount lenses on and a few other Loxia and Voigtlander MF lenses. I rarely use the vaunted Sony AF, why you ask? Because, I get too many keepers, there is not much of a challenge except when the damn AF focuses on something I don't want to focus on. It gets very frustrating to me. I like that with a RF, I can pick exactly what I want to focus on. I also don't have to dive into menus to get the camera to do what I want. Do I have as many keepers with the Leica? No. But I have images that I really like and I know that I had at least a little bit to do with how they came out. My epiphany came one day walking around London with my A1, I saw something out of the corner of my eye, swung around and bam, took the shot and the image turned out. To my pea brain, it wasn't about contemplating, and framing an image, it was just "taking" an image. Kind of like the analogy of shooting fish in a barrel. I don't find the same satisfaction/enjoyment shooting with camera/computer(Sony) that does everything for me. Sony images are spectacular and I could be more contemplative with one, but to me they are soulless boxes. And then of course the lenses are huge in comparison. 

The whole "idea" of an M, at least to me, is to "make" and image vs "take" an image. Now, that doesn't mean I don't take a lot of crap images, because I do, but once in a while, everything comes together and that image that I made is something that makes me smile. It is a challenge to make images with a Leica M and that is the appeal to me as well as to others. There is nothing wrong with having an AF camera, or tilt screen (the SL and Q series meets those wants), they have their place but the most enjoyment I get from photography is with an M. I like the M just the way they are. 

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[hdmesa]

41 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Upon re-reading this thread, I think we should be more open-minded to the newcomers' fresh impressions.  It't not very often that folks arrive outside of the OG echo chamber and can articulate their first reactions.  Eg a tilt screen seems a good development for the Q series bit the M would rather shed the screen altogether.  It's probably counterintuitive for most photographers outside of the M system.  I'd encourage folks to stick with it, and moreover I'm now very fond of going back in time for a while, dwelling on the 240/246 generation.  The matching M9M/M9P and M10R/M10M pairs await.  The question is what you can do with them.  Eg street photography with a 24mm can be done without much focusing.

Not very often we get these folks? Are you kidding me right now? We get like ten a week. They step into a camera store, take a few snaps with an M, then come in here to tell us all about their experience, which of course leave us completely riveted and in awe of their opinions. Then they linger here for at least a month so they can be sure to add their opinions onto every other thread that expresses the same feelings they have.

[setuporg]

7 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

of course leave us completely riveted and in awe of their opinions

lol perhaps I tend to ignore those subjects:)

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, setuporg said:

lol perhaps I tend to ignore those subjects:)

 

The pretend new Leica user accounts here have continued to get more realistic, but they all follow a similar pattern. I'm convinced someone is training their AI model using this forum as a guinea pig 🫣

 

[lykaman]

I didn’t realize how strong the Red Dot ‘koolaide’ has become! 
I’ve owned a 111f  M3  M6 all with various Leica’s legendary lenses. Great cameras & lenses, offering the photographer the ability to produce the images we all love..  price points nowadays are way beyond the average Joes paycheck. 🍷

[pgk]

The M rangefinder camera is quite simply a tool. If you are happy to operate within its working parameters, like precise manual, decision led focus point and the limited range of focal length it works best with, it can be a very effective and rewarding tool. Like any precision instrument though, it takes some mastering, something many forget in today's world of automation. And an M rangeinder is not for everyone. Leica still promote it as a 'street' camera which is in my opinion working nostagia to the limit. It can be used in many ways but there are often better tools available for specialist areas. If I was undertaking 'street' photography (I have no intention of doing) I would unhesitatingly use a 'phone for many reasons. I use my M cameras for general photography staying within their boundaries and have no concerns about capabilities and/or output. The desire to amend and update a very effective tool in order to give it more capabilities is a hiding to nothing because there is no obvious endpoint to stop at.

 

[hdmesa]

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Just now, lykaman said:

I didn’t realize how strong the Red Dot ‘koolaide’ has become! 
I’ve owned a 111f  M3  M6 all with various Leica’s legendary lenses. Great cameras & lenses, offering the photographer the ability to produce the images we all love..  price points nowadays are way beyond the average Joes paycheck. 🍷

If I slammed into this forum as a new user having dropped >$50K on new Leica gear, I'd sure as shit be posting "look at me" photos of the gear along with beauty shots of my cats. These accounts are not real but are run by aliens 🤫 😂

[evikne]

I must admit that I'm a little envious of people who can walk into a Leica store and pick up a selection of items from the top shelf, almost on impulse. Others (like me) have to save up for years to buy their dream equipment. But their advantage then is that they usually know very well what to expect.

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, evikne said:

I must admit that I'm a little envious of people who can walk into a Leica store and pick up a selection of items from the top shelf, almost on impulse. Others (like me) have to save up for years to buy their dream equipment. But their advantage then is that they usually know very well what to expect.

All my equipment has to justify its existence by being used, and anything that is bought has to be financed at least partly by a sale.

And when you've been a photographer for long enough you realise that the dream item isn't necessarily the most expensive, nor new. 

[Markey]

For what its worth my impression is that a Leica M is the in thing at the moment .

I watch a YTube channel featuring street photography

Its mainly just walking ,talking and shooting.

The striking thing is that most are under 40 , 80% are using film M`s and they`re zone focussing.

A film M seems to be the cool thing to have.

Oh and the majority are pretty good too although the language can get a bit irritating .... lots of "likes"

For your delectation ... one at random 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Markey

[DadDadDaddyo]

Hmmm. Maybe I need to send mine off to a brassing boutique to have it properly brassed.

Does anyone know where I can find reviews of brassing boutiques?

[Anbaric]

20 minutes ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Hmmm. Maybe I need to send mine off to a brassing boutique to have it properly brassed.

Does anyone know where I can find reviews of brassing boutiques?

I get mine done at Kravitz Design. They do a good job.

[charlesphoto99]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Quite a few artists have an idea of what they are trying to depict and how - painters (with some exceptions) don't just throw paint at the canvas to be pleasantly surprised by the result. You imply that anyone who uses an EVF is not creating art but just reproducing (even though with most EVF cameras you don't see depth of field by default - the viewing is with the lens wide open). 

I disagree with how you describe M photographers who don't do things the way you do ('reproducing', 'commercial', 'aspirational owners', 'better off with another camera'), but it's always good to hear how other people see things.

Of course. Adams had a pretty good idea how his Half Dome 8X10 camera pics would turn out when he took the photo vis a vis a complex set of developer and then printing recipes and huge amounts of manual craft and skill. But it wasn't the camera that did those for him. And always a bit of luck thrown in: Moonrise was a single moment, lost if not taken, despite the cumbersomeness of his gear. 

And no, I never said one can't make art with an EVF camera. That is silly, as they are simply the new dslr (I wish I could use them without making me sick, as I very much like the idea of the Nikon Zf). But imo, the M is not a great EVF camera, and one is leaving a large part of the reason to use one, and the $9K it costs to get into a new one, on the floor if not using the rangefinder. That's all.

Nobody needs to or even should do anything 'my way.' But I bet/hope if one adopts just a bit of what I said, one might have some fun and breakthrough when frustrated with the M, and perhaps make some images that they didn't know they had in them. I like to surprise myself (though still uncertain if I could live with a D model) and to me that is at the core of the pass through, inaccurate frame lines, M viewfinder experience. 

[Cattoo]

7 hours ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Perhaps this is about the difference between liking something vs. liking the idea of something. 

Sometimes, I think, people come in to the Leica world because something about it attracts them to it. It's about the idea of it, more than the reality of the experience. 

This happens along a lot of vectors and in circumstances other than Leicas, or even cameras. 

Sometimes it manifests itself as a bizarre kind of self-image consciousness. Kind of makes my teeth grind... 

"I like how it looks better than other cameras I've tried. "

"Does it go with my safari vest?"

"Do I look like a real photographer?"

Or my favorite, "Does this camera make my butt look big?"

Well, I've never actually heard that one, but you see what I mean...

So folks, ask yourselves: what is the Leica brand, thing, Little Red Dot, what have you, doing for you? Why are you drawn to it?

Are you hoping people will notice? Ask you about it? Conclude something about you as a photographer because of it? Conclude something about you as a person because of it?

The only relief comes in realizing that there are such folks for every brand that's out there. Just go to the various forums and you'll run into them.

Maybe I should order a photo vest that has printed on the back, "Just ignore me, please. I'm trying to make pictures here"

...... as long as the vest goes with my camera bag, that is. 

We should be glad that there are people who buy into the Leica M for the idea of it only to become disillusioned once they realize that it can’t do selfies because without them we wouldn’t have that like-new pre-owned market and would be stuck paying retail price for everything. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Cattoo

[DadDadDaddyo]

Excellent point!

[JoshuaR]

I think a general issue—not unique to the OP but actually endemic to photography culture online—is that people don't use cameras for long enough.

The M system is particularly hard to master, but actually most cameras are pretty complicated. Yet the general tendency is for people to try out a system for a week or a month and then say, "Here are my flaws or 'dealbreakers,' along with my wishlist for the next version." I've been guilty of this myself!

In reality, it simply takes a long time to learn how to work with a camera system. You must adapt slowly, adjust your practices, and learn the ins and outs. People use many kinds of cameras to do great work—they've adapted. But adaptation is slow and laborious and often frustrating. Instead of investing that time and effort, people churn through gear, trying it briefly, reacting to it, judging it, and then moving on. They report on their experiences, but the experiences are simply too brief.

I did this very thing with the Q2. I was curious, rented one for a week, and then wrote an elaborate post on a Fuji forum (since I shot Fuji then) with my reactions and criticisms. The basic tone of my post was critical. Later, though, I sold all my Fuji gear to buy a Q2. I eventually found, after almost a year's usage, that almost all of my criticisms of the Q2 had been off-base. Once I'd adapted my habits around the new camera, I produced great results.

I honestly think it takes a year. Not just for cameras, but for lenses, too. At least, that's true for me. I've learned to just withhold judgment and keep practicing. If my instinct, going in, was that this equipment might benefit me, then it's best to continue following my instinct, instead of reacting to what's new or unfamiliar and bouncing to yet another piece of gear. The idea is to practice and change and only reflect later, after I'm really experienced. I now tell myself not to buy anything unless I'm willing to use it for a full year and see what I think of it after shooting with it for all four seasons.

I'm still doing this with my M10 Monochrom. I bought it more than a year ago, and still don't know what I think of it. I'm continuing to learn. One challenge is that, the more gear you own, the longer it takes to get real experience with any one piece of equipment. People will say, "I own Camera X, Camera Y, and Camera Z—so I know what I'm talking about when I react to Camera A after using it for three weeks." But I don't think this is necessarily true. Actually, it could be that owning all those cameras means that you're less likely to invest the time and effort required to really learn something new.

It just takes time.

Edited December 2, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[pgk]

11 hours ago, evikne said:

I must admit that I'm a little envious of people who can walk into a Leica store and pick up a selection of items from the top shelf, almost on impulse.

The financial ability to but expensive, esoteric equipment does not imply any ability whatsoever to use it (as should be obvious from how many very expensive cars are driven). One problem is that some people obviously equate cost with ease of use which in the case of Leica M cameras is patently incorrect. I've built up a Custom Arca Swiss technical camera for step and repeat stitching photography, primarily to shoot very old, larger format lenses. Even buying used and carefully they are not cheap, and they are a bugger to use like this. But as I progress the rewards are increasing and the images getting better.

If anyone wants a camera brassing by the way, just lend it to me for a short while because, whilst I look after my own gear, I can always make exeptions😉.

[pippy]

8 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

...In reality, it simply takes a long time to learn how to work with a camera system...

Absolutely!

The OP has used an M for one week. It took me longer than that to get through the instruction manuals for my DSLRs...

Philip.

Edited December 2, 2024 by pippy

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[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, pippy said:

Absolutely!

The OP has used an M for one week. It took me longer than that to get through the instruction manuals for my DSLRs...

Philip.

A week after buying the SL I was sitting in a car park in Boulogne reading the manual on my phone trying to work out why I was in video mode.

[thrid]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:17 AM, DigitalHeMan said:

May I offer some advice? Based upon your earlier posts here and on Reddit I know you're currently shooting with your Noctilux 50mm, and you're enjoying using it wide open. A fine lens certainly. But maybe to help you learn the rangefinder focus experience, start off by not shooting wide open. Try at f/2.8 until you're getting 90%+ in focus, then go to f/2 until you've achieved 90%=, f/1.4, and finally f/0.95. Practice will certainly make perfect in this case. Rangefinder focusing is a fast and accurate way of using a camera. once you've got the hang of it.....

Good point.

Former Noctilux owner here.

If I remember correctly at 1 meter there was 1 cm of DOF that was in focus.

So, between you and your subject breathing getting an eye in focus is a crap shoot, even for an experienced shooter with a calibrated RF unit.

I hate to say it, but for that kind of shooting I really preferred my Nikon F bodies. I used to shoot a Zeiss ZF 1.4/85 for closeup portrait shots at f1.4. Basically I would set focus to 1 meter and then simply move the entire camera to and from the subject until the eyes popped into focus on the rather coarse ground glass. Worked like a charm and I was even able to nail action shots like that of singers bouncing around. I love the M-series, but it's not made to do everything...