Goodbye, M11!

[summarity]

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On the storage issues with the M11-D, I have one and can't reproduce it. I've written gphoto2 (and MTP client library) based software to allow deduplicated automatic import (and tethering) into DxO, and have through the MTP API tested exhausting both the internal and SD memory on the latest firmware. No freezing issues or data loss. But of course, that doesn't mean issues don't exist - and there are definitely funky events produced by the MTP connection - likely those are proprietary to Fotos and not actual issues. Anyhow, just another data point, I guess.

This is all with FW 2.1.3. I didn't even dare use the D with an older version and updated before shooting any images, mostly because I had insane freezing and lock-up issues with my M11-M on previous versions. On 2.1.3 both have been rock solid.

On the other hand, there is probably a reason several of the larger Leica stores around here have multiple D returns sitting around, and some won't buy preowned Ds either (but have low stock on all other M11 variants and will buy pre-owned). It may be just users who didn't click with the workflow, or it may be stability issues, who knows. Mine was one of those returns.

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[bubbachua]

16 hours ago, JimmyCheng said:

It doesn't actually work that way if I am being honest. Here is my personal experience using every gen of M, and I think some might agree with me. 
1. When I was using my M9, because of the lack of liveview and shitty screen resolution, I shoot with rangefinder or zone focus 100% of the time.
2. When I got the M10 gen, even though the liveview is more usable, but due to the fact that there's a delay when switched to liveview and it also consumes more battery, it gives me a guilty feeling when using it. Hence, I would say about 80% of my photos were taken with rangefinder or zone focus.
3. When it comes to the M11 gen, knowing the sensor is always open and metering, plus there is no delay when you switch to liveview, I grew more and more fond of using it. The result is about 50% of my photos were taken using liveview (which is scary! I only got half of that rangefinder exp now!)
So I think M11D does help for those who experienced what I have experienced. It's not so easy as to "not look at the screen". It's the same as "put down the phone and don't use social media". If it's there, you can't help it. 

Great to hear your experience Jimmy! Before I got the M10D I was using a Q2, so I went from shooting with liveview to rf only, and I’d say while on my M10D I was shooting mostly street, hip shots, zonal focus, and landscapes, and some snaps at a wedding. On M11 the liveview is so good, I do agree I don’t use my viewfinder as much. 
btw, big fan of your channel, many of your videos have influenced and informed me on several purchases

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, lct said:

On this good old forum some people love the M11 so much that they brag when they sell it, like my cat when he brings me a mouse 😄

If you pay the M11 kind of prices, I’ll bring you a whole herd of mice!

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, summarity said:

...and some won't buy preowned Ds either...

Please source this with the names of the Leica stores that won't take a D on trade.

[setuporg]

Returns and sales finalized, this household is M11-free!  Went for a week shooting with the Leica 60 on one battery.  Enjoyed making videos with the M246.  Trading one of the M9Ms for an M-P 240 to make color videos too!

[roma]

On 11/24/2024 at 6:23 PM, evikne said:

I'm glad I waited and didn't buy the M11-D, it wasn't quite what I was hoping for (it still looks tempting though). I can't afford trial and error, and I don't have a backup camera. I need to know that my next camera is something I can rely on for years to come. But my M10 still works great, and I'm fine with waiting a few more years to see how the M12-D turns out.

With the way things/ideas are going at Wetzlar, I’m beginning to believe my M10 is as good as it’s going to get. 

[Derbyshire Man]

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6 hours ago, roma said:

With the way things/ideas are going at Wetzlar, I’m beginning to believe my M10 is as good as it’s going to get. 

...for me.

 

[Smudgerer]

46 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

...for me.

 

I guess this means that you agree, but don't you have a fistful of 11's?

I sort of agree too about the M10, I am keeping my 10-P and 10-M even though I was offered very decent trade-in numbers for either / both against a 11-M when I was briefly flirting with that idea.......but then recovered some sanity, ( as if that's a part of Leica stuff ownership, not sure ). I do appreciate the better battery life with the M11-D, the USB charging port the choice of resolutions, the lesser weight and black finish too. As fond as I was of the departed M10-D I find the 11-D a much improved piece of kit, I like the camera more and more as I use it and so far it's not bitten me which is good.

I do think though that we are at something of a "tipping point" with the Leica M's, they are becoming too stuffed with electronics and Leica is yet to prove to many of us that it can handle all of that without "growing pains' that seem to last as long as a new versions run of life. I think we are at a point where less could be better, simpler could be better and rock solid reliability not a thing of the past.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2024 by Smudgerer

[fenykepesz]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Smudgerer:

As fond as I was of the departed M10-D I find the 11-D a much improved piece of kit, I like the camera more and more as I use it and so far it's not bitten me which is good.

same here, @Smudgerer, i can't imagine a better, a smoother, a more elegant tool for doing my daily photography than the current M*D version, that's the m11d.

vor 17 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

this household is M11-free!

wow, how harsh !  i really feel bad for you, @setuporg, what a bad luck with your m11d !  i understand your motivation for moving backward in time, focusing on your older M gear, for the sake of simplicity, but that would have been the raison d'être also for your m11d, if it hadn't had that memory malheur.  i hope as you will get it back from Wetzlar in a few months that you could have your second chance with it ?

do you have any photos to share ?  you appear to be quite involved with visual art.  i am just curious...

Edited November 30, 2024 by fenykepesz

[hansvons]

30 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

I think we are at a point where less could be better, simpler could be better and rock solid reliability not a thing of the past.

I would think of an M11-S with the battery/baseplate/connectivity/internal memory of an M11 but a 24 MP sensor of the latest generation exhibiting little or no jello when using the electronic shutter in fast-paced action. I'd pay the  M11 price for fewer but better pixels. Until then, I'll keep looking for an ordinary M10.

 

 

[setuporg]

Thanks @fenykepesz, but I have returned the D to the dealer.  It is you going to Wetzlar for examination and I hope they will be able to salvage some photos.  I am a bit tardy publishing, need to do more!:)

I’m really happy to get to go back to all the previous generations of full-frame digital Leica M.  Now am excited about the rangefinder video.

[RF’sDelight]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb hansvons:

I would think of an M11-S with the battery/baseplate/connectivity/internal memory of an M11 but a 24 MP sensor of the latest generation exhibiting little or no jello when using the electronic shutter in fast-paced action. I'd pay the  M11 price for fewer but better pixels. Until then, I'll keep looking for an ordinary M10.

If I could have an M with the 24 MP sensor of the SL2-S, it would be my only digital M for color. In some mystical way the SL2-S impresses me with its rendering every time I pick it up, whether with SL lenses or M lenses.

[Smudgerer]

5 hours ago, hansvons said:

I would think of an M11-S with the battery/baseplate/connectivity/internal memory of an M11 but a 24 MP sensor of the latest generation exhibiting little or no jello when using the electronic shutter in fast-paced action. I'd pay the  M11 price for fewer but better pixels. Until then, I'll keep looking for an ordinary M10.

 

 

While I do totally agree with you in regards to a "M11-S", and whilst I absolutely do think that 24mps is the sweet-spot for a digital M too, "more stuff" in my opinion is less and just asking for trouble I feel that this unnecessary "chase" that Leica and other camera manufacturers are on for yet more features and just asking to be bitten in the arse. Leica has been always known pre-digital for being a bit of an outlier in keeping their cameras simple, pure maybe....But not so much now. I wish that they could find a path back, like you I'd jump at that. In an odd way with the M11-D now I am sort of trying that, I've yet to shot any image at the full resolution of 60mps, 18mps works fine for me and gives me what the films I would choose to load would, and that's sweet and I think, hope, that I am now more than 95% clear of Fotos and I'm working on that too.

I just got my original M2 back from a re-paint black and a full CLA, I've had that camera since around 1967, a working tool for many decades, this was only it's second CLA, simple and honest, like my Nikon F2's of the same vintage, hard working tools that they are. I guess a lot of things have changed and much has been lost too................I don't know why I wandered off track there!

Edited November 30, 2024 by Smudgerer

[T I N O]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Smudgerer:

just got my original M2 back from a re-paint black and a full CLA, I've had that camera since around 1967

Wow, nice! 👌

Do you mind sharing a picture or two?

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Leica has been always known pre-digital for being a bit of an outlier in keeping their cameras simple, pure maybe....But not so much now. I wish that they could find a path back, like you I'd jump at that. In an odd way with the M11-D now I am sort of trying that, I've yet to shot any image at the full resolution of 60mps, 18mps works fine for me and gives me what the films I would choose to load would, and that's sweet and I think, hope, that I am now more than 95% clear of Fotos and I'm working on that too.

18MP. Here you have it.

A 60MP sensor and a range finder focusing system are condemned to chasing the "best" digital image with the worst tools. A losing formula that millions of M11 and M10r images grandiosely prove. With its AF, hard-to-believe IBIS, and brilliant APO lenses, the SL camera series sets a benchmark in Leica's own lineup in terms of technical IQ that the M system will not remotely reach regardless of what you add, whether it's a high-MTF lens like the 35mm Summicron M APO or the pathetic Visoflex that resembles perfectly the wrong path Leica took when it entered the numbers races with the M10r/M11.

There's so much more to an image than pixel count. Leica even admits that with the Steel Rim reissue, which seems to be a success story when following this forum. Similar things can be said about every M-mount lens older than the 90s, regardless of manufacturer. And why is that? Because people buy into the M system for the experience and the wish to bring back the old times when photos were timeless and had a signature. They want character, personality, and whatnot, but not the same image as the latest SonyCanonNikon, only it's a bit soft because they manually focused with a more than 70-year-old focusing system at 1/125 without IBIS. 

Leica should focus on expression, the artistic side, and the user experience that drives excellent photography, not on technology-idolising men and their empty GAS. Ask women what they want. It's that simple (and let them ambassador Leica). 

[hdmesa]

45 minutes ago, hansvons said:

18MP. Here you have it.

A 60MP sensor and a range finder focusing system are condemned to chasing the "best" digital image with the worst tools. A losing formula that millions of M11 and M10r images grandiosely prove. With its AF, hard-to-believe IBIS, and brilliant APO lenses, the SL camera series sets a benchmark in Leica's own lineup in terms of technical IQ that the M system will not remotely reach regardless of what you add, whether it's a high-MTF lens like the 35mm Summicron M APO or the pathetic Visoflex that resembles perfectly the wrong path Leica took when it entered the numbers races with the M10r/M11.

There's so much more to an image than pixel count. Leica even admits that with the Steel Rim reissue, which seems to be a success story when following this forum. Similar things can be said about every M-mount lens older than the 90s, regardless of manufacturer. And why is that? Because people buy into the M system for the experience and the wish to bring back the old times when photos were timeless and had a signature. They want character, personality, and whatnot, but not the same image as the latest SonyCanonNikon, only it's a bit soft because they manually focused with a more than 70-year-old focusing system at 1/125 without IBIS. 

Leica should focus on expression, the artistic side, and the user experience that drives excellent photography, not on technology-idolising men and their empty GAS. Ask women what they want. It's that simple (and let them ambassador Leica). 

I want the SL2-S sensor in an M11-S not because I only need 24mp, but because those are the best 24mp I've ever seen out of any camera. Glorious color and sparkle*.

*Don't ask me for test shots that demonstrate. IYKYK.

[hansvons]

30 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I want the SL2-S sensor in an M11-S not because I only need 24mp, but because those are the best 24mp I've ever seen out of any camera. Glorious color and sparkle*.

Agreed. My SL2-S produces the richest raw stills I've encountered. However, its handling is not remotely as inviting as that of an M camera. So, Leica, make us an M11-S!

[Derbyshire Man]

10 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

I guess this means that you agree, but don't you have a fistful of 11's?

I sort of agree too about the M10, I am keeping my 10-P and 10-M even though I was offered very decent trade-in numbers for either / both against a 11-M when I was briefly flirting with that idea.......but then recovered some sanity, ( as if that's a part of Leica stuff ownership, not sure ). I do appreciate the better battery life with the M11-D, the USB charging port the choice of resolutions, the lesser weight and black finish too. As fond as I was of the departed M10-D I find the 11-D a much improved piece of kit, I like the camera more and more as I use it and so far it's not bitten me which is good.

I do think though that we are at something of a "tipping point" with the Leica M's, they are becoming too stuffed with electronics and Leica is yet to prove to many of us that it can handle all of that without "growing pains' that seem to last as long as a new versions run of life. I think we are at a point where less could be better, simpler could be better and rock solid reliability not a thing of the past.

 

 

I caused confusion there! I meant that Roma's statement that the M10 was as good as it was going to get was for him/her. I've not owned a M10 of any sort but as you say I've a set of M11's and love them!

 

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[Crem]

9 hours ago, RF’sDelight said:

If I could have an M with the 24 MP sensor of the SL2-S, it would be my only digital M for color. In some mystical way the SL2-S impresses me with its rendering every time I pick it up, whether with SL lenses or M lenses.

This is my M dream camera. When I shoot digital I almost always grab my SL2-S and a M lens. The rendering, noise, colors, low light performance, etc is the best I’ve seen. If only we could get that sensor in a M body. I especially love that sensor at ISO 800. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Crem

[frame-it]

On 11/24/2024 at 7:31 PM, jaapv said:

Why? If your camera works great, what sense does it make to buy another one?

well...

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