Apo Summicron 90mm f/2 Silver limited edition (2002-2004) Vs Apo Summicron 90mm f/2 Black lens (1998- current)

[Leicoholic]

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Hi there,

I am new to Leica camera system. Just bought M 11 P camera (Silver top)  early this year. I also have a few lenses which are in silver as well as I like to match them with the camera body.

Some of them are Summaron -M 28mm f/5.6, Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 asph , Apo summicron -M 50mm f/2 asph, ( all three in silver and all are new production)

Planning to purchase a 90mm lens to use for portrait and wedding photography. 

I am unable to buy a modern 90mm lens in Silver. 

Found a used lens Apo Summicron 90mm f/2 asph in silver. But this is a limited edition one(600 pieces only) produced between 2002-2004 . Cost price now is $4400 (USD).

Similar lens which is brand new ( 2024 production) but black in colour costs only $4060(USD)

I am more inclined to silver one as it is a limited edition and is in Mint condition. Just wondering if I am paying a huge premium for this 20 yr old lens?

Need some advice from the established Leica users. Thank you for your time.

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[pedaes]

2 hours ago, Leicoholic said:

paying a huge premium

Welcome to the Forum.

You are paying a premium for a collectors lens. If kept near mint it should retain its value.

Like you I have silver body and mostly silver lenses, one exception being a black 90mm APO. It is a lens I rarely use so doesn't bother me. I would suggest you  consider how much you will use a 90mm before paying the premium for the silver. I would also mention that as the 90 APO is not one of the popular lenses they are good value "pre-loved'.

Unless you are desperate for F2, I would seriously consider the optically excellent 2.4 Summarit, which is much lighter and available as standard in silver. Unfortunately out of production so you will need to search hard to find one.

You will also find 90's in silver from Zeiss and Voigtlander.

[fil-m]

Hello

It is hard to find an objective answer or rationale. Leica lenses are (IMO) masterpieces of design and engineering. Nevertheless their pricing model is that of niche, high premium products, influenced by user desire and demand, with customers willing to pay very high, sometimes absurd prices to own them or add them to their collection. This mostly applies to limited production runs like your APO 90 silver for which the color is the "simple differentiator" as well as models which were too complex to manufacture like the original Noctilux 50/1.2, the 35SR and 35AA etc. Nothing can technically justify those prices except that they exist in limited quantities and users want them and fight for their scarcity. At times, the prices can go down with no real explanation other than tight market conditions (less customers willing to pay) and sometimes they overshoot because a famous photographer said somewhere that this lens is unique and its rendering can take us all to heaven or simply that its color is worth the price because it fits better their preferred M body (I've seen this recently for the old Summicron 50 Rigid black edition, knowing that it can be 20x more expensive than its common... equivalent silver version).

So just to say that the premium is indeed high and becomes huge for lenses available in limited quantities. Can it be justified beyond scarcity vs demand? You may not be able to justify but if you really want your APO90 in silver, well... Just realise that the seemingly unique silver 35AA drives the average price on the used market which is around 20K USD for the black version up to ... almost 1 million USD (link here); the seller even tries to justify that with the rule of three. Now I don't believe the 90 APO will go anywhere that high, simply because M users are mostly focused on the 28-50mm range and there are 600 of your APO90 silver. But the good news, is that everything is allowed in the Leica universe in terms of pricing, and we are all free to accept or reject ridiculously high prices, no questions asked 😆

Personally, I wouldn't pay a high premium just for the color of the lens, but I could very well understand another photographer who does! As I said there are no rules in the Leica universe. So if the used APO90 silver you found is in great condition, knowing that their optical formula did not change since 1998, and that you want silver to match it with the M body... there isn't much choice and the answer is -unfortunately - unavoidable   

Edited November 19, 2024 by fil-m

[Leicoholic]

Hi Pedaes, 

Thank you for your valuable advice. I will make an attempt to research on Summarit 90mm before I committ to my final decision. Have a good one. Cheers

[Leicoholic]

Hi fil-m,

Thank you for a sensible and a meaningful advice. Being new to Leica community it a great help to me. 

Have a nice day. Cheers

[pippy]

Hi, Leicaoholic, and welcome to the forum.

As pedaes has already mentioned you would be paying a premium because of the relative rarity of the lens.

Also as pedaes mentions the 90mm f2.4 and marginally older f2.5 Summarits are truly excellent performers and can be found for what is - in LeicaLand - a very reasonable outlay. One other aspect when opting for a 90mm lens is that lenses of this focal-length don't seem to be given such a hard life in comparison to shorter lenses so most tend to be found in good condition both optically and cosmetically.

I would also suggest that, if you are set on a silver-chrome 90mm and would prefer one with a max. ap. of f2.0 you might look for one of the pre-APO (a.k.a. Version 3) 90mm Summicrons. These were made from 1980 until superseded by the APO in 1998.

FWIW I have both an f2.5 Summarit and a pair of the v3 Summicrons (one silver; one black). All are excellent performers. The Summarit is noticeably lighter and shorter. The Summicrons, obviously, have the advantage of that extra half-a-stop and - arguably and subjectively - more pleasing rendering when shot wide-open; especially for portraiture.

Here in the UK the silver-chrome versions of both the Summarit f2.4 and v3 Summicron are usually offered in roughly the same price-range which seems to be centred around £1250 / $1550 for an example in very good condition from a reputable dealer.

Best of good fortune in your lens-hunt!

Just for fits'n'giggles here is a snap of a Silver v3 Summicron (on a Silver M Monochrom);

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Philip.

Edited November 20, 2024 by pippy

[Leicoholic]

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Hi Philip,

Wow! that's an awesome pic. Thank you for taking some time to educate me. I am learning so much about Leica lenses and it is indeed a great forum where knowledge is shared without any restrictions. Appreciate your help guys!

[luigi bertolotti]

Me too have the bias towards chromes... 😉 And not only for they match right my Silver M : I like their look, simply; and 90 is a focal I have always used a lot, so that now I have 3 "modern" 90s in chrome (not counting the "oldies"... with a special love for my old chrome Tele Elmarit "dwarf" 😎).

- Macro Elmar 

- Elmarit M

- Summicron V3

And I use all of 3 : Macro is the best for carrying : i hike a lot on mountains, and its weight/size is a definitive plus, as well as the highly compact macro adapter ; Elmarit is imho the sharpest of the trio, highly appreciated when I have the goal of a big print; overall, I consider it my best performer 90. Hay, the silver is fine, superbly made...and HEAVY. The Summicron.. I admit is the less used... I bought it just beacause it came from a friend at a good price and is a "last batch" 3.722.xxx : focusing at f2 IS critical, but when you have time to make 3 takings with micro focus adjustements to choose the best, its rendering is comparable to Elmarit wide open : to say, it's a modern sharp lens (I have an old Summicron of 1959 - not comparable) ; dunno why, I feel it as less heavy than the Elmarit (and it is not) .. maybe an effect of the big front glass that makes you expect even more weight... 😁

All of them can be found used at reasonable prices (meanly, with premium on chromes, I have noticed) , so my advice... is someway obvious : go for Elmarit if you don't WANT/NEED  f2 ; the Elmar is fine with its macro adapter (and the whole chrome set is a bit costly, I feel), but for  macro, supposed you need it, there are other solutions with EVF usage, and the Elmarit does render fine also at short distances (I used it, for instance, with OUFRO - and tested it even with 2 stacked).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

(sorry, it's a quick phone pic...😗)

Edited November 21, 2024 by luigi bertolotti

[Leicoholic]

Thank you Luigi bertolotti. I am guessing the centre one is Pre apo ver 3 Summicron.

Appreciate your advice.

[pippy]

14 hours ago, Leicoholic said:

Thank you Luigi bertolotti. I am guessing the centre one is Pre apo ver 3 Summicron.

No. As can be seen the Max. Aperture of that lens is f2.8 which indicates that it is one of the 1990 - 2008 Elmarit-M lenses. The lens on the right is a V3 Summicron.

FWIW In addition to Black and Chrome versions the Elmarit-M was also released in 'Titanium' finish.

Philip.

Edited November 22, 2024 by pippy

[Jerrold]

Having had both black and silver APOs I'd note the more common black lens is already quite heavy, but the silver felt significantly heavier. The main reason I hardly used and and eventually sold it. 

[charlesphoto99]

On 11/21/2024 at 8:57 AM, luigi bertolotti said:

Me too have the bias towards chromes... 😉 And not only for they match right my Silver M : I like their look, simply; and 90 is a focal I have always used a lot, so that now I have 3 "modern" 90s in chrome (not counting the "oldies"... with a special love for my old chrome Tele Elmarit "dwarf" 😎).

- Macro Elmar 

- Elmarit M

- Summicron V3

And I use all of 3 : Macro is the best for carrying : i hike a lot on mountains, and its weight/size is a definitive plus, as well as the highly compact macro adapter ; Elmarit is imho the sharpest of the trio, highly appreciated when I have the goal of a big print; overall, I consider it my best performer 90. Hay, the silver is fine, superbly made...and HEAVY. The Summicron.. I admit is the less used... I bought it just beacause it came from a friend at a good price and is a "last batch" 3.722.xxx : focusing at f2 IS critical, but when you have time to make 3 takings with micro focus adjustements to choose the best, its rendering is comparable to Elmarit wide open : to say, it's a modern sharp lens (I have an old Summicron of 1959 - not comparable) ; dunno why, I feel it as less heavy than the Elmarit (and it is not) .. maybe an effect of the big front glass that makes you expect even more weight... 😁

All of them can be found used at reasonable prices (meanly, with premium on chromes, I have noticed) , so my advice... is someway obvious : go for Elmarit if you don't WANT/NEED  f2 ; the Elmar is fine with its macro adapter (and the whole chrome set is a bit costly, I feel), but for  macro, supposed you need it, there are other solutions with EVF usage, and the Elmarit does render fine also at short distances (I used it, for instance, with OUFRO - and tested it even with 2 stacked).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

(sorry, it's a quick phone pic...😗)

I've owned and shot all three of these in black - and have also sold them and rebought over the course of the years (currently own only the Elmarit and the gen 1 Macro). If you're new to Leica M, I would advise against the APO. It's heavy, often a stiffer focus than the other two, you'll rarely use f2 as it is hard to keep the focus plane, the APO quality is really unforgiving when it comes to portraits, and with the clean higher iso's of the newer generation of M digital cameras, needing a summicron or summilux in any focal length has become almost a moot point. The f2.8 Elmarit is an incredible lens, and can be found easily on the used market for under a grand (not sure about silver). I love the size and portability of the Macro, but for some reason the image quality has always left me flat. Save your money, get a used Elmarit (or similar Summarit), and put the $$ somewhere else (like a backup body for example). 

[luigi bertolotti]

3 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I've owned and shot all three of these in black - and have also sold them and rebought over the course of the years (currently own only the Elmarit and the gen 1 Macro). If you're new to Leica M, I would advise against the APO. It's heavy, often a stiffer focus than the other two, you'll rarely use f2 as it is hard to keep the focus plane, the APO quality is really unforgiving when it comes to portraits, and with the clean higher iso's of the newer generation of M digital cameras, needing a summicron or summilux in any focal length has become almost a moot point. The f2.8 Elmarit is an incredible lens, and can be found easily on the used market for under a grand (not sure about silver). I love the size and portability of the Macro, but for some reason the image quality has always left me flat. Save your money, get a used Elmarit (or similar Summarit), and put the $$ somewhere else (like a backup body for example). 

... "flat" ... but its focus plane is also very flat as must be in a macro/repro 😁 Jokes apart, I agree : a good modern 90 but no exciting : 

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

... "flat" ... but its focus plane is also very flat as must be in a macro/repro 😁 Jokes apart, I agree : a good modern 90 but no exciting : 

It's a great travel lens because it's so compact, but I can't recall a single image from it that has any 'zing' to it for lack of a better descriptor. Still, I hang onto it...

[Robert Blanko]

I have the Macro Elmar and I had the Summarit 90/2.4. But I sold the latter because it shows considerably more chromatic aberration. Color saturation and sharpness of the Macro Elmar are stunning, but compared to my 75 APO I sometimes would like to have the extra gain of micro clarity (don’t know how to describe this in a better way).

[Leicoholic]

Thanks Rob.

Thanks Philip for correcting me. Cheers

[paperplanes]

As a few have mentioned, the silver lens is heavy. Besides for being limited to 600 the silver asph apo version is made of brass unlike the black version. I have had it since 2002 and only used it a few times. The look of the images from the lens are amazing, color and contrast wise.

[Paulus]

Am 19.11.2024 um 14:39 schrieb Leicoholic:

Hi there,

I am new to Leica camera system. Just bought M 11 P camera (Silver top)  early this year. I also have a few lenses which are in silver as well as I like to match them with the camera body.

Some of them are Summaron -M 28mm f/5.6, Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 asph , Apo summicron -M 50mm f/2 asph, ( all three in silver and all are new production)

Planning to purchase a 90mm lens to use for portrait and wedding photography. 

I am unable to buy a modern 90mm lens in Silver. 

Found a used lens Apo Summicron 90mm f/2 asph in silver. But this is a limited edition one(600 pieces only) produced between 2002-2004 . Cost price now is $4400 (USD).

Similar lens which is brand new ( 2024 production) but black in colour costs only $4060(USD)

I am more inclined to silver one as it is a limited edition and is in Mint condition. Just wondering if I am paying a huge premium for this 20 yr old lens?

Need some advice from the established Leica users. Thank you for your time.

I did have a black one, titan coated one and s silver one. The titan and silver are made of cupper or brass and are very heavy in vomparisson with the black one , which is already heavy enough. 
I sold them all. 
I now have a 90mm from 1937. Light small and poor lens quality. But when i need a 90mm it’s there.

i reslised that I better use the 50 mm instead of 90 apo summicron because focussing with it is a art: you never know with 2,0 if it will be in focus when you use the rangfinder. 

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