Crazy if M11-D is my first rangefinder?

[Tseg]

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Would my getting an M11D as my first rangefinder help or hinder my desire to enjoy and appreciate the rangefinder experience?

I've been an occasionally-avid photographer for over 10 years, but walked away from GAS about 10 years ago and maximized the existing equipment I had to take pictures and moved on to other collectible hobbies.  Recently, the Q3 43 launch rekindled my interest in new camera equipment out of nowhere.  I got it but then found myself only using it in complete manual mode... including using EVF Extended, where the rear LCD is rarely activated.  As I approach retirement I'm becoming enamored with Leica and the rangefinder concept, never having owned a rangefinder.  Since I have time on my hands, and a lot more time soon, and a willingness learn, would it be a bad idea to try to learn the rangefinder experience on an M11-D?  I'm already accepting it will likely be challenging and frustrating early on.  Conquering the challenge of getting wonderful results with it is part of the allure to me.  As they say, nothing worth having is easy.  Why jump straight to the M11D?  It is kind of the opposite of the Q3 43, which is what I find fascinating.  I am not one to always jump to the next upgrade... the M11-D will likely end up being an heirloom if it does not become unrepairable first.  I would also plan on keeping the wonderful Q3 43 as an alternative camera in the event I am wanting/needing bells, whistles and automation.   My only thought was "should I wait for an M12D?"... but life is too short to always be waiting for the next one.  I also considered an older D model to test, but there is a lot of cost/annoyance in flipping equipment, to the extent my hobby extension proves successful, and I then want to upgrade.  And if this hobby experiment doesn't prove successful, I sell off my M equipment, keep the Q, and move on.  It's not like I'm flipping boats or cars.

Would my getting an M11D as my first rangefinder help or hinder my desire to enjoy and appreciate the rangefinder experience?  Why is it a good idea?  Why is it a bad idea?

Edited November 8, 2024 by Tseg

[Derbyshire Man]

You'd be fine is my guess. In the learning stage you could check the photo's in the foto phone app. There's a beta on the go that will make that even easier. One always misses things taken away more than absent from the beginning. If you've never had a screen on you M, never been able to change the white balance 5 times a day, or shutter mode, you're likely not going to miss it. The M11D will get you directly as close to film as you are going to get with all of the developing/printing benefits of digital. Focussing on a range finder is fine as long as you get the correct diopter. Experiment in the shop! If you can't manage then you can always buy a visoflex as kind of bicycle stabiliser wheel that you may dispense of later except for specific cases.

I'd say a M11D is less of a punt that an M11 Monochrom.

Your friends and acquaintances will however think you've completely lost your sense!

Many will come along shortly and recommend an older second hand model, possibly an M10 which has already stabilised in price largely. That would undoubtedly be more sensible. 

It does rather depend on whether sensible is in your game plan.

[spydrxx]

I'd say give it a go. If it doesn't work out you can always sell it and try something else.

[hdmesa]

53 minutes ago, Tseg said:

Would my getting an M11D as my first rangefinder help or hinder my desire to enjoy and appreciate the rangefinder experience?

I've been an occasionally-avid photographer for over 10 years, but walked away from GAS about 10 years ago and maximized the existing equipment I had to take pictures and moved on to other collectible hobbies.  Recently, the Q3 43 launch rekindled my interest in new camera equipment out of nowhere.  I got it but then found myself only using it in complete manual mode... including using EVF Extended, where the rear LCD is rarely activated.  As I approach retirement I'm becoming enamored with Leica and the rangefinder concept, never having owned a rangefinder.  Since I have time on my hands, and a lot more time soon, and a willingness learn, would it be a bad idea to try to learn the rangefinder experience on an M11-D?  I'm already accepting it will likely be challenging and frustrating early on.  Conquering the challenge of getting wonderful results with it is part of the allure to me.  As they say, nothing worth having is easy.  Why jump straight to the M11D?  It is kind of the opposite of the Q3 43, which is what I find fascinating.  I am not one to always jump to the next upgrade... the M11-D will likely end up being an heirloom if it does not become unrepairable first.  I would also plan on keeping the wonderful Q3 43 as an alternative camera in the event I am wanting/needing bells, whistles and automation.   My only thought was "should I wait for an M12D?"... but life is too short to always be waiting for the next one.  I also considered an older D model to test, but there is a lot of cost/annoyance in flipping equipment, to the extent my hobby extension proves successful, and I then want to upgrade.  And if this hobby experiment doesn't prove successful, I sell off my M equipment, keep the Q, and move on.  It's not like I'm flipping boats or cars.

Would my getting an M11D as my first rangefinder help or hinder my desire to enjoy and appreciate the rangefinder experience?  Why is it a good idea?  Why is it a bad idea?

Have you considered a film M to start off with? That's the only kind of M I would ever consider "heirloom". If so, something like an M4-P might be a good camera, plus you'd have the added manual challenge of using an external light meter.

https://leicastoremiami.com/collections/new-used-arrivals/products/used-leica-m4-p-black-chrome-brass-1980-recent-dag-cla-with-flare-free-finder?variant=44961767293059

If not film, then the M11-D will hold its value long term because Leica doesn't make many of them. Not sure when you're located, but Leica USA has two in stock as of earlier today.

Even if you don't use it much, getting the Visoflex 2 for M11-D is good for testing a new M lens for proper focus with the rangefinder. There are also times when I'm tired, and I just want to use the EVF. 

For me, the only inconvenience of the M11-D is not having immediate access to menus by using the Visoflex 2. The FOTOS phone app is required for that. Some say that's also the benefit of the M11-D, which is set it up once and never change anything. 

[Tseg]

The more I look into it, because of the maliability of digital files, it ultimately is less daunting than those that learned how to use a rangefinder when only film existed… and somehow people managed.  I had not considered the Visoflex 2 out of the gate, but maybe I need to reconsider (?), or maybe just know it is an option if I face frustration early on.  

[fenykepesz]

i would just go with the m11d, @Tseg after you tested it a bit at the shop, and familiarized yourself with its look and feel.  if you used film cameras in the past - be that SLRs or mirrorless ones - you will quickly feel at home.  you only need to get used to the focus system which per se is a constant 'struggle' and fiddling to precisely adjust the distance.  if you anyway are used to work 'manually' then all the buttons you ever will need are right there, at the right spot.  my first digital camera was the m10d, and coming from film, there was hardly any learning curve for me - except perhaps for how to avoid those easily blown highlights.  both are fantastic cameras, but the m11d is still the better tool, for me at least, a more mature product to mimic film cameras, for various reasons discussed here at LUF.  i absolutely love the workflow with the m11d, i can't imagine a camera design that suits my work style better when taking pictures.

[st4u]

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Hello Tseg,

Going with Leica is always crazy. I had the same question. I changed all SLR equipment I had - I never gave up the M6 of 1999, that I don’t use very often. 2020 I bought one of the last new M10-D as a successor and never regret it.

I never had problems with that decision. Less pictures, but almost always high quality. Nevertheless, after years you will still use a SL version additionally and then minimize the use of the rear screen to the bare minimum 🙂 

go for it and good light!
 

Chris

Edited November 9, 2024 by st4u
Edited

[evikne]

I took a similar path some years ago. I used Canon DSLR, but always with fully manual settings. And because I liked to shoot with shallow depth of field, I always used only the middle AF point, or manual focus. When I got my first Leica M, the change wasn't that big. The exposure settings were the same, just much easier to reach, with dedicated wheels for what you needed, and manual focusing was so much easier! It's surprisingly quick and precise to just bring the two images in the focus patch together and snap a picture. 

I've never looked back since. My only regret was that I bought a new M10 and didn't wait for the M10-D to be released (but I didn't know that at the time). And if I were to buy my first Leica now, it would definitely be an M11-D.

Edited November 9, 2024 by evikne

[caloosajo]

My first M was the MD 262, and I am glad I went that route. Supercharged my confidence/comfort with shooting manual and zone focusing, plus made the addition of a film M so easy. With the M11 sensor and its dynamic range/ISO, M11-D seems like an easy entry point (as opposed to ISO ceiling 1600-3200 of the 262). I would suggest reflecting on the “need” for immediate image review based on the kind of photography and/or your subjects—it became awkward/stressful not being able to check comp/focus with my documentary project.

[jgeenen]

Nowadays, We are all used to control our results immediately on the LCD screen. This (sort of) reduces the steepness of our learning curve. Starting with a “D” variant will reduce this opportunity. Is that a bad idea - probably not: you habe the time to grow with your challenges. But don’t give up too early, the lack of electronic compensation for human mistakes from focusing over exposure to color setting and beyond is not always easy to manage!

Edited November 9, 2024 by jgeenen

[emlokto]

I almost did this. Almost. I had an M11-D on order with a Visoflex and ended up turning it into an M11-P and a 35mm steel-rim reissue. I've had the camera for three weeks. The initial setup and everything would have been a little annoying without the back screen (having this been my first M), but otherwise seems trivial. There are things that sometimes don't make sense (at first), where I'd have taken a bunch of photos with the wrong setting had I not had a screen to check them. I generally don't look at the screen on the back, but it was convenient to change some settings and see the results immediately. The Leica FOTO app gets a lot of praise, but it doesn't always hold a connection, so it might get frustrating if you depend on it. 

There are some lighting conditions where the rangefinder 'window' is difficult to see, and the back screen is so convenient to use during those times. I also got the new close-focus Summilux (which I def need for my stuff), and it's honestly easier to use the back of the screen than to whip out the Visoflex. 

Overall, it would be slightly more inconveniencing had I gotten the M11-D and had a slightly longer learning curve, but overall, I don't think you could go wrong with either option. In my mind, I did the right one for me, but sometimes I wished I had gotten the M11-D instead. So, in a rambling way of saying, go with your gut. 

[Tseg]

2 hours ago, jgeenen said:

Nowadays, We are all used to control our results immediately on the LCD screen. This (sort of) reduces the steepness of our learning curve. Starting with a “D” variant will reduce this opportunity. Is that a bad idea - probably not: you habe the time to grow with your challenges. But don’t give up too early, the lack of electronic compensation for human mistakes from focusing over exposure to color setting and beyond is not always easy to manage!

Well, I placed the M11-D order this evening... on a waiting list.   I'll be pairing it with a 2023 28mm Sumicron initially.   Because I do have the Q3 43 and already use it almost exclusively fully manually, I think it provides great "training wheels" in advance of the M11-D using settings the "Leica way", but looking forward to the transition from EVF focus peaking to rangefinder focusing and composition experience.   At some point I will look to add the 50mm Summilux.   I also have an old 35mm FF Sony RX1 fixed lens for that focal length that still works as good as the day I got it... As well as the Sony RX10 III sitting around for any wildlife/sports shooting with its 600mm equivalent focal length, although I rarely use that.  Knock on wood, I'm thinking I'm seeing the end of this latest GAS spurt (well that came out like a shart).  Hopefully another decade or more passes until I get the itch again.

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, Tseg said:

I'm thinking I'm seeing the end of this latest GAS spurt

🤣🤣🤣

[st4u]

Congratulations,

you will be happy!

Leica Fotos you will need only for the first settings. Avoid the visoflex you will not need. Dont’t give up, if the first fotos are not the best. Then you will be rewarded with pure satsified photographic experience. 
„I'mthinking I'm seeing the end of this latest GAS spurt“ has worked for me with the M6 and then M10-D….

but perhaps you need a second M11-D….

All the best

Chris

[JoshuaR]

All I can say is that I've been living the screenless-M lifestyle for about a week, having dropped my M10-R in the driveway last weekend. The camera still takes great pictures, but the buttons and screen no longer function. The only adjustments I can make are to aperture and shutter speed.

Honestly, it's great. The camera is stuck in single-shot mode, at -0.7 EV, with my usual Auto ISO settings. No chimping really is awesome. It's the same flow as shooting film, except without the hassle of developing. I haven't missed any shots, but I have been more in the moment. Not like I was in some distracted hellscape before, but the difference is there. A proper M11-D, with the good Visoflex 2, would be best of both worlds.

Unfortunately for me, now that my M10-R is damaged, I can't directly upgrade to an M11-D. I have to get the camera repaired first. But this past week has been a good proof-of-concept for me, and I'll probably figure out the logistics of doing the upgrade eventually.

[Viv]

On 11/9/2024 at 5:32 AM, fenykepesz said:

i would just go with the m11d, @Tseg after you tested it a bit at the shop, and familiarized yourself with its look and feel.  if you used film cameras in the past - be that SLRs or mirrorless ones - you will quickly feel at home.  you only need to get used to the focus system which per se is a constant 'struggle' and fiddling to precisely adjust the distance.  if you anyway are used to work 'manually' then all the buttons you ever will need are right there, at the right spot.  my first digital camera was the m10d, and coming from film, there was hardly any learning curve for me - except perhaps for how to avoid those easily blown highlights.  both are fantastic cameras, but the m11d is still the better tool, for me at least, a more mature product to mimic film cameras, for various reasons discussed here at LUF.  i absolutely love the workflow with the m11d, i can't imagine a camera design that suits my work style better when taking pictures.

I fully agree with everything said here in this post.

[emlokto]

21 hours ago, Tseg said:

 I also have an old 35mm FF Sony RX1 fixed lens for that focal length that still works as good as the day I got it...

I blame this camera for my photography obsession.

[Squidproquo]

M11-D was my first rangefinder, first M.  After Sony A7´s, Leica Q2 and others - I´m home....

[250swb]

@Tseg it's madness, for your first digital rangefinder embrace the experience of what you get in a 'normal' digital M11. Then if having too much easily accessible information is an annoyance neuter it by not looking at the LCD. The 'D' variant isn't about making better photographs, it's about a refined version of the 'Leica performance', in which aspects of the Leica philosophy and user myths are taken to the extremes, like 'I only shoot wide open', or 'this lens is glued to my M camera', or 'my 35mm Summicron is the King of Bokeh', or 'I can hand hold at 1/8th second all day every day', or 'I don't do any post processing, but are my images crap?', or indeed 'I want the purity of the experience, but I don't know what the experience really is'.

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[Tseg]

31 minutes ago, Squidproquo said:

M11-D was my first rangefinder, first M.  After Sony A7´s, Leica Q2 and others - I´m home....

It is always interesting waiting on a new toy that is backordered.  I keep reflecting on do I stick with the M11-D order or go the easier route more travelled and get an M11-P?  I then remind myself that I already have a lot of devices that capture images... I'm about to spend a wad of cash to experience the image capture differently.  Having an LED screen is just like my RX1, my Q3 43, my RX10 III and my iPhone.   It is time for me to stick with my true motivation behind buying this M camera... a different experience.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Tseg