Elmar 65mm f3.5 + 16464K + M11 + ??

[Kilo2Mike]

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Hi folks: 

First time posting - I'm new to Leica but on a photo walk realized I didn't have macro capability and a recently came upon an Elmar 65mm with the 16464K mount to start. I've been reading I need one more piece, a Visoflex II or III. 

A few questions:

* Is the reason I need a Visoflex is to focus?

* Which one would work with the M11? The II or the III?

* Is there an alternative that I could simply shoot through the display, or will not not focus well enough?

Thanks!!!

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[pippy]

1 hour ago, Kilo2Mike said:

Hi folks: 

First time posting - I'm new to Leica but on a photo walk realized I didn't have macro capability and a recently came upon an Elmar 65mm with the 16464K mount to start. I've been reading I need one more piece, a Visoflex II or III. 

A few questions:

* Is the reason I need a Visoflex is to focus?

* Which one would work with the M11? The II or the III?

* Is there an alternative that I could simply shoot through the display, or will not not focus well enough?

Thanks!!!

Several years ago (when I was looking for a Viso) it was always advised for buyers to get the III. Avoid the earliest M-mount Viso 1's as the mirror-housing unit when fitted with a 90 degree finder will not clear the top-plate. I'm not 100% about the dimensions of the Viso II so cannot advise. I seem to remeber reading that the III had improved mirror-box 'mechanics' (?) and that the shutter-release stuff of the II wasn't in quite the right place for use with a digi-M but could very well be mistaken!

I don't know (obviously!) how much research you have done but using a Viso for macro work on an out-and-about photo walk might not be as straightforward as you imagine...

The Viso - in effect - makes the M work like a single-lens-reflex camera but using such a unit is rather cumbersome by comparison with an SLR. Firstly the camera/Viso/lens unit is used for framing and focussing (the r/f is redundant). Once composed and focussed the mirror in the Viso needs to be moved out of the way in order that the image might be captured in much the same way that an SLR's mirror swings upwards to facilitate exposure. One the mirror of the Viso is swung upwards the shutter can be tripped.

In practice (IMX; others might have a far better MO!) for close-up-work - since D-o-F is paper thin - all of this can only really be achieved when the camera is tripod-mounted as any movement back-or-forwards - regardless of how slight - will result in a blurred image. Secondly to trip the shutter it is strongly advised that a shutter-release-cable is fitted to counter any camera-shake resulting from tripping the shutter manually. Some double-cable-releases were manufactured specifically for use with the Viso to allow for easy mirror-swing / shutter-trip operation.

The Viso / 16464 / 65 Elmar is a great combination which can capture images from infinity down to approx. 1/2 life size but make no mistake; it will not be as simple as using, for instance, a Nikon F with a Micro-Nikkor...

Best of good fortune!

Philip.

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by pippy

[pedaes]

2 hours ago, Kilo2Mike said:

* Which one would work with the M11? The II or the III?

I have the II and think it would be fine. As @pippy says, not the most elegant solution, but fun and a dip into Leica history! 

Can I make a suggestion. I use the Visoflex II but with the electronic Visoflex. The electronic Visoflex will give a much more accurate view of focus and can be angled to a convenient position.

This picture is of the set up (with Bellows) albeit on a M10 capturing a Bee Orchid in a friends garden.. 

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[pippy]

32 minutes ago, pedaes said:

I have the II and think it would be fine......not the most elegant solution, but fun and a dip into Leica history!...

Nice Pic!

Yes; it is worthwhile remebering that the first Leitz reflex-box (PLOOT?) and associated accessories came out in the early 1930s and the Visoflex-M housings were, in reality, merely updated versions of that nigh-on 100-y-o design so 'Modern-Day-Cutting-Edge' they ain't!.....😸......

Good fun, though, if one has a bit of time / patience. Work quite well (IMX) for 'digitising' film too.

Philip.

Edited November 5, 2024 by pippy

[UliWer]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Kilo2Mike:

Hi folks: 

First time posting - I'm new to Leica but on a photo walk realized I didn't have macro capability and a recently came upon an Elmar 65mm with the 16464K mount to start. I've been reading I need one more piece, a Visoflex II or III. 

A few questions:

* Is the reason I need a Visoflex is to focus?

* Which one would work with the M11? The II or the III?

* Is there an alternative that I could simply shoot through the display, or will not not focus well enough?

Thanks!!!

ad 1.: The 1:3.5/65mm Elmar with the 16464 focussing device was designed for close distance photography which was not possible with the camera's rangefinder. So the Visoflex body was added to allow focussing through the lens as you do with an SLR camera. The downside of this construction was a much longer extension between the camera and lens. Without tis extension the lens will not focus properly.

ad.2. The finder of the Visoflex II had a "step" which aligned it to the lower bodies of early M cameras. The M11 body is higher so the Visoflex II finder will not fit to it. So if you want to use the Visoflex with the optical finder you will need the Visoflex III.

Here you see the differences: Visoflex II with M3 on the left, Visoflex III with M10 on the right:

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ad. 3: Yes, you can use the display (or an electronic "Visoflex"). You just leave off the finder, fix the Visoflexes mirror in upward position and unscrew the lever (which is easy and  non-destructive.) So you use the Visoflex body just as an "extension ring". This doesn't look very stylish, though as the body isn't heavy and easy to handle, and the Viisoflex gives you an additional option for fixing a tripod, I think it's still the most convenient solution for using Visoflex lenses on an M body:

Of course there are other solutions as well. You may have a look here: 

 

 

[Kilo2Mike]

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Thank you all! I might go with a TXBOO since I plan to focus with live view, but the portrait to landscape switch is a concerning factor. Lots to consider!

[drew.saunders]

The Novoflex macro extension tube set, when all extensions are used, claims to be essentially a TXBOO that seems a bit more practical: https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters/extension-tube-set-leica-m.html
You could use any lens in macro mode with it, removing tube sections to get the magnification you want, plus all of them to use any Visoflex lenses, bellows, etc.

Should I ever get a digital M and electronic Visoflex, I'll happily replace my optical Visoflex III (the mirror is getting pretty muddy) with one of those tube sets. 

[UliWer]

Am 5.11.2024 um 17:58 schrieb Kilo2Mike:

I might go with a TXBOO

The TXBOO has a female screw-mount on the lenses side. To focus the 65mm Elmar you need the 16464 mount which has a bayonet. I don’t see how a 65mm Elmar with focussing mount could be adapted to the TXBOO. The TXBOO was made for longer lenses like the 200mm Telyt, which have a screw-mount and of course their own focussing devices.

The Novoflex LEM/VIS will work well with the 65mm Elmar+16464. Though you cannot fix a tripod on it and it doesn’t allow the easy switch between landscape and portrait mode like the Visoflex. With long focal lenses like the 200 Telyt it will show strong vignetting, which the Visoflex doesn’t. And I fear the Novoflex will be more expensive than an old Visoflex. 

After trying all these devices and some more I still think the Visoflex body as simple extension is the most practical solution. And you can use the optical finder(s) if you like. 

[sandro]

Just a few days ago I bought a M11 and one of the things I am interested in is how to use Visoflex lenses on the M11. The explanations by UliWer are very helpful, especially after I tried to use a Visoflex III with Telyt 4.5/200mm this afternoon. The lever of the Visoflex doesn't fit very well on the release button, perhaps the position of the release button is slightly different from that on analog M camera's which I have been using for many years.

The Visoflex II should give the possibility to use it in the way Uli described, but one doesn't have to unscrew the lever. When the mirror is up you don't swing the lever in its position to press the release button. When the mirror is down, just swing the lever in position and push it once to turn the mirror up and it should be ready. haven't tried it yet but I am anxious to see how the older Visoflex lenses can then be used on the M11.

So Uli, many thanks!

Lex

Edited March 20 by sandro

[ldhrads]

On 11/5/2024 at 3:30 PM, drew.saunders said:

The Novoflex macro extension tube set, when all extensions are used, claims to be essentially a TXBOO that seems a bit more practical: https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters/extension-tube-set-leica-m.html
You could use any lens in macro mode with it, removing tube sections to get the magnification you want, plus all of them to use any Visoflex lenses, bellows, etc.

Should I ever get a digital M and electronic Visoflex, I'll happily replace my optical Visoflex III (the mirror is getting pretty muddy) with one of those tube sets. 

This is the trick you want. The novoflex adapter  removes the clunky manual visoflex and you can then focus with the screen in live view or the Visoflex EVF version.

 

[sandro]

Fot those (like me) who don't find the Visoflex II or III clunky there is another way to use Visoflex lenses on digital M cameras. This afternoon I used the solution described by Uliwer: M11 with Visoflex II without its finder, OUBIO and then the desired Visoflex lens. For small flowers it is not easy to focus on the screen of the camera and I don't have the modern Visoflex 2, so I wanted to use the ground-glass of the Visoflex. But then the mirror needs to get out of the way, which isn't possible once you use the ground-glass. 

After I had taken some photos I found the solution in my cupboard.

The Visoflex IIa offers these possibilities: swing the release arm out of the way, use the ground-glass with the vertical finder OTVXO to focus, use the switch to lift the mirror and take the picture. Next time I will use this set-up.

Lex

[sandro]

Update to the previous post. Reality was slightly different from what I expected, since the mirror lock-up of my Visoflex IIa doesn't function completely once the release arm is swung forward, so the mirror keeps blocking most of the image. When I positioned the release arm to use it as release button it didn't work out either, because it doesn't properly push the camera's release button.

So I tried with a Visoflex III, the release arm of which can be used to push the release button of my M11, although I'd prefer to use a cable release on the camera. I haven't (yet) taken off the release arm of this Visoflex III since I have no idea if one can screw it back on again and have it function on analog M bodies.

Lex