Should I replace it all with an M11?

[JoshuaR]

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Over the past couple of years, I've acquired an M10-R, M10M, and SL2-S. Having spent a fair amount of time with an M11 recently, it's become pretty clear to me that I could replace all three cameras with an M11 and a Visoflex and still take basically all of the photographs I take now, in a way that I'd find satisfying.

• M10-R: Everything the M10-R can do, the M11 can do.
• M10M: My sense is that, although the M10M outperforms the M11 at high ISOs and possesses some Monochrom Sensor Magic™, I will still be able to get very close to the same output from an M11 in all but the most demanding lighting situations. (I am not a "black and white mindset" photographer; I'm happy to convert images, and I value the M10M mainly for the tonality of its files.)
• SL2-S: I don't require autofocus, and so use this camera almost exclusively with long M lenses (75, 90, 135), often packing it alongside my Ms when I anticipate needing reach. Having tried a Visoflex 2, however, I think I can live with the significant downgrade in the EVF in exchange for a far more streamlined kit. (I have tried both Visoflex 020 and Visoflex 2 on my M10-generation cameras, and the poor quality of that experience led me to an SL2-S—but the Visoflex 2 on the M11 is good enough for my needs.)

I love my cameras and have a lot of sentimental attachment to them. I'm also a little susceptible to the notion that the M10-R and M10M represent some sort of design "peak" within the digital M universe. But I also find my sprawling kit to be unnecessarily complex and redundant, both physically (batteries, memory cards) and conceptually (which camera should I take today?). I've talked with some dealers, and it seems likely that I'll be able to trade in all three cameras for an M11-P or -D, probably emerging with some cash in my pocket.

I have a few hesitations, of course:

• Although I'm a hobbyist, I've almost always owned a backup camera of some kind. Consolidating to a single body feels slightly risky to me. I often use my cameras in situations like the beach, the snow, and so on. I have two small kids and the possibility of some camera-ending accident is hard to deny.
• I'm still just a little wary of the M11 platform. It seems like most of the problems have been sorted, but my current cameras are rock solid.
• The biggest issue is that I'm producing great images with my current kit. In fact, I've never been more successful in my photography. So perhaps the sprawling kit is simply working for me, and I shouldn't mess with it. On the other hand, who's to say that I wouldn't benefit from simplifying and streamlining? 

If I could sum it up, I'd say that I miss the days when I had basically one setup and used it for everything. It all lived in a single bag and there was never any thinking about what to take. The quality of the M11 + Visoflex combination means that, If I'm willing to embrace some trade-offs, I can very easily get back to that. Should I? What am I missing?

I know this is ultimately my decision to make, but I'd value any input. And thank you for reading!

Edited October 30, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

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[hdmesa]

Didn't you already ask this? Maybe it was on another forum. In any case, I think this is a sign you should get the M11 if you're still thinking about it after all that. But I would keep your SL2-S for the longer lenses. M11 with Visoflex 2 would not be ideal for that.

[JoshuaR]

3 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Didn't you already ask this? Maybe it was on another forum. In any case, I think this is a sign you should get the M11 if you're still thinking about it after all that. But I would keep your SL2-S for the longer lenses. M11 with Visoflex 2 would not be ideal for that.

Indeed, I asked whether the Visoflex 2 with an M11 could replace my SL2-S for the longer focal lengths. And then, after getting good advice in that thread, I actually bought a Visoflex 2 and tried it out with my M10s and with an M11 to see for myself.

I suppose the new wrinkle here that now I'm considering the totally drastic move of replacing all three of my cameras with one camera . . . .

[hdmesa]

10 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Indeed, I asked whether the Visoflex 2 with an M11 could replace my SL2-S for the longer focal lengths. And then, after getting good advice in that thread, I actually bought a Visoflex 2 and tried it out with my M10s and with an M11 to see for myself.

I suppose the new wrinkle here that now I'm considering the totally drastic move of replacing all three of my cameras with one camera . . . .

Gotcha. I think the M11 is a perfect replacement for the M10-R + M10M but not the SL2-S. Just my two cents that the SL2-S color is better than the M11, and b&w conversions with the SL2-S are also better. I currently have the M11-D and Visoflex 2, and I am thinking about repurchasing an SL2-S. SL2-S to me is the go-to camera for when I wouldn't need 60mp. The M11-D is for when I want small size and/or need 60mp files.

Edited October 30, 2024 by hdmesa

[JoshuaR]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Gotcha. I think the M11 is a perfect replacement for the M10-R + M10M but not the SL2-S. Just my two cents that the SL2-S color is better than the M11, and b&w conversions with the SL2-S are also better. I currently have the M11-D and Visoflex 2, and I am thinking about repurchasing an SL2-S. SL2-S to me is the go-to camera for when I wouldn't need 60mp. The M11-D is for when I want small size and/or need 60mp files.

Thanks for this! My guess is that, in my case, I'd accept the compromises you're describing and just stick with the M11. My goal with this trade would be to consolidate entirely to one camera and simply decided that it's going to work for everything. I imagine that I'd mostly shoot the M11 at 36mp....

Thanks for your thoughts. I suppose this is ultimately a "one vs. several" decision, and that's partly about technical capabilities and partly about.... vibes?

When I used to shoot film, I had two film Ms, one for color, one for black and white, and a medium format camera for portraits. But with digital, the tools are so capable that so overlap is inevitable....

Edited October 30, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[LocalHero1953]

Why not just sell the SL2-S and M10M and keep the M10-R (and a lot of money)? You haven't explained yet what the M11 offers that you don't get from the M10-R.

[Smogg]

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8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Why not just sell the SL2-S and M10M and keep the M10-R (and a lot of money)? You haven't explained yet what the M11 offers that you don't get from the M10-R.

The M10-R is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the M series evolution. However, it is not very well suited for use with the Visoflex.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Why not just sell the SL2-S and M10M and keep the M10-R (and a lot of money)? You haven't explained yet what the M11 offers that you don't get from the M10-R.

If you need an EVF and have to shoot an M, the Visoflex 2 on the M11 makes a difference. Even discounting the improved viewing experience with the Visoflex 2, there is the issue of battery life with an EVF that widens the gap between the M10-R and M11.

Edited October 30, 2024 by hdmesa

[Photoworks]

Sell your 2 M10's and buy a used M11, they now go for $6000

and keep the SL2 and still have money left over

[Jeff S]

At a minimum, you’ve made a case for selling the Monochrom.  You could start there, and see if you can get along by keeping the M10-R on the shelf for a while and determine if the SL2-S could be your single camera solution. It’s about the same size as an M with Viso, with better EVF, IBIS, and a robust, flexible and reliable platform. If that didn’t suit, you still could trade the M10-R for the M11, while keeping the SL2-S on the shelf to see if the M11 alone works for you. This incremental approach would give you time to experiment, without jumping in all at once.

Jeff

[JoshuaR]

Thanks for these responses. I know this is a sort of neurotic and navel-gazing question, and I appreciate everyone’s participation! 😂

 

[newtoleica]

IF ITS WORKING FOR YOU WHY MESS IT UP?

its just GAS - admit it and just go out shooting with what you have.

[Dazzajl]

The logic (if there can be any in a GAS thread?) is impeccable. However, you currently have a monochrom. If you sell that you have won’t be someone who has a monochrom and will be far less cool* for it. 
 

 

 

 

*in reality probably, geeky ☺️

[jonoslack]

I'm with Photoworks on this one

Sell the 2 M10s and get an M11 (or recently secondhand M11). Keep the SL2-S for a while and see whether you still use it. 

The M11 is pretty stable these days so I don't think you need to worry about that - the -P and -D are nice, but don't have any actual photographic advantages over the base M11. For me at least 64gb of internal memory is quite enough. 

I understand the feeling that the M10-R was a 'peak' but in actual use the M11 has so many obvious advantages (see below)

For me it is the electronic shutter for shooting wide open in bright light, the improved battery life, the internal memory and the USB-C charging is the real deal.

. . . . . and I like the colour better too - especially for skin tones (although I acknowledge some disagree).  The only downside as far as I'm concerned is that the shutter noise is not as nice as the M10-R, but you'll get used to that quickly. 

 

• The new base improves weather sealing and strength
• New black paint option is very resilient with grippy finish
• Aluminium top plate on black version makes it 110 gms lighter
• 3 New programmable function buttons (Fn, top-plate, thumbwheel)
• New battery with 700 shot CIPA standard
• 64Gb of very fast internal memory
• Brand new and faster Maestro III processor
• New 60mp BSI sensor with excellent dynamic range
• Full time off-sensor metering (much more accurate, no extra shutter lag)
• Electronic Shutter (up to 1/16,000 sec)
• USB-C Charging,
• PTP and Apple MFI connectivity using USB-C port
• Improved Fotos app allowing filtering selections and tethering
• New well constructed EVF with bigger and brighter image (like Q2)
• The New LCD has more than twice the resolution of that on the M10
• Both EVF and LCD have image stabilisation (to help compose/focus)
• Combined Quick Menu and status screen
• Menus changed to be even more comparable with Q2 and SL2
• Improved menu system for uncoded M lenses
• Digital Zoom mode with framelines for 1.3 and 1.8 crops
• Variable DNG size (18.4mp, 36.5mp and 60.3mp)

[Henners]

I think the M11 is a safe bet if you're not shooting professionally, I can't personally see a scenario where you'll view a photo you've taken with the M11 and be gutted, wishing it was with a different body. The M11 is a good enough center point of all your cameras for a typical-ish M user.

I also agree the M10-R feels like the peak for output but for use (battery, USB-C etc) the M11 is hardly much of a compromise. I say get the M11 and enjoy it, then keep an eye out for the M12.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Henners

[jonoslack]

19 minutes ago, Henners said:

I think the M11 is a safe bet if you're not shooting professionally, I can't personally see a scenario where you'll view a photo you've taken with the M11 and be gutted, wishing it was with a different body. The M11 is a good enough center point of all your cameras for a typical-ish M user.

I also agree the M10-R feels like the peak for output but for use (battery, USB-C etc) the M11 is hardly much of a compromise. I say get the M11 and enjoy it, then keep an eye out for the M12.

I don't think for a second that the M10-R is the peak for output - the M11 files have more dynamic range, and much better skin tones!

[Henners]

26 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I don't think for a second that the M10-R is the peak for output - the M11 files have more dynamic range, and much better skin tones!

That is likely true but from my personal experience in travel/street photography I think I preferred the output of my M10-R over my M11. It's all subjective and pros/cons and ultimately all digital Leica's are great at capturing moments.

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I don't think for a second that the M10-R is the peak for output - the M11 files have more dynamic range, and much better skin tones!

I find M11 files harsher and would have a hard time to let the M10-R go.  I also have the M10M so it feels like I'd have to let them go as a pair.  I have every previous digital color Leica generation represented in some way as well as all the Monochroms before M11M.  I treat them as different kinds of film.  But I am still not convinced that M11 is sufficient to replace M10-R as the main camera, even though I used M11-P it exclusively since its launch and now M11-D since that one's launch.  I feel like I need to sell the M11-P after getting the D but not the M10-R.

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[JoshuaR]

Thanks for all the responses—they are genuinely helpful, and I'm grateful for all the advice.

My reflection this evening is as follows:

• The goal here would really be to simplify the kit to just one camera for everything, for reasons of minimalism and clear-headedness. So keeping the SL2-S alongside an M11 would be beside the point; if I'm going to have two cameras to choose from on any given day, I might as well have three and stick with my current setup.
• Just from the perspective of capability, my current kit is hard to improve upon. If I move to a single M11, I'd gain in some ways and lose in others. For example, it seems like I'd gain in dynamic range over the M10-R, but might lose vs. the M10M. I'd gain in portability over the SL2-S, but lose in terms of the EVF.
• The real benefit would be simplicity. One kit that could work in all circumstances and fit in a single smallish camera bag. I'd probably simplify my lenses as well.
• . . . And yet I could always just pack a subset of my gear. I could simplify in my head, rather than in reality.

So I guess it boils down to whether having a smaller and simpler kit is itself a source of value, and whether that value outweighs the compromises and lost opportunities involved in giving up on having specialized cameras (e.g., a Monochrom).

There's no obviously right answer, unfortunately . . . . Inertia would dictate that I stick with my current kit, a spirit of adventure would suggest changing it up.

[Photojournoguy]

1 hour ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Thanks for all the responses—they are genuinely helpful, and I'm grateful for all the advice.

My reflection this evening is as follows:

• The goal here would really be to simplify the kit to just one camera for everything, for reasons of minimalism and clear-headedness. So keeping the SL2-S alongside an M11 would be beside the point; if I'm going to have two cameras to choose from on any given day, I might as well have three and stick with my current setup.
• Just from the perspective of capability, my current kit is hard to improve upon. If I move to a single M11, I'd gain in some ways and lose in others. For example, it seems like I'd gain in dynamic range over the M10-R, but might lose vs. the M10M. I'd gain in portability over the SL2-S, but lose in terms of the EVF.
• The real benefit would be simplicity. One kit that could work in all circumstances and fit in a single smallish camera bag. I'd probably simplify my lenses as well.
• . . . And yet I could always just pack a subset of my gear. I could simplify in my head, rather than in reality.

So I guess it boils down to whether having a smaller and simpler kit is itself a source of value, and whether that value outweighs the compromises and lost opportunities involved in giving up on having specialized cameras (e.g., a Monochrom).

There's no obviously right answer, unfortunately . . . . Inertia would dictate that I stick with my current kit, a spirit of adventure would suggest changing it up.

This has been an intriguing conversation to follow and it’s clear you are very astute, intuitive and discerning in your approach.

I never touched the 11 series with no plans to so won’t of course weigh in there.

But maybe I can from the perspective of a single M body and lens owner. I find value in having a ‘ride or die’ (haven’t had any issues or accidents with having only one camera as a hobbyist like you, knock on wood) and take it to situations like you have in mind but am aware/careful of its presence and don’t let the kids touch it. It was a very emotionally charged and very illogical decision to make it the M10M. It took weeks to accept it is what would make me definitively excited and enthused to take it with me on my photographic adventures.

The logical/practical solution is to keep all the gear as is, but nothing about owning or experiencing Leica is purely a practical decision.

Maybe in reflecting on recent months and over the coming weeks ‘in the moment,’ think about such questions as:

- When shooting the SL-2, did/do you enjoy the act of using it? As much as the M? Not the output but the feeling of carrying and using it. Do you find it stimulating/rewarding in the field?

- Do you see anything in the monochrom files that stop you in your tracks? Any images you took with it that you don’t think have a unique appeal from the 10R conversions? If you feel you don’t, is there then any reason you pick that up any given day?

- if someone flipped a coin and said to pick your most cherished body while the coin is in the air, which comes to mind in that split second?

- are you at peace with missing shots and moments, whether because of manual focus or having a narrower lens selection?

- does holding one over the other make you feel more confident, excited, etc to take on the day with the family?

- are you okay not having the SL to hand over to a stranger to take any family shots with you in them, if that’s your thing at all? I never do that with the M.

- do you have a family member whose house you can drop off two bodies and handful of lenses, to really feel for a month or two what it’s like to own a single body and few lenses? But without the risk.

- what is your artistic voice/visual signature? Which one helps you achieve that goal in the most emotionally satisfying manner?

Etc.

If different camera bodies are your answers to these different questions, maybe versatility makes the most sense.