Is this normal lens flare for a Summicron 35mm ASPH?

[MPJP]

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Hi all, 

I have a new 35mm Summicron ASPH II (11673) on my MP. I use a Leica UVa II filter on this lens as well as the lens hood.

I’ve noticed that when shooting at wide apertures directed at low sun, I get a strong horizontal flare. This is reduced at smaller apertures, but even then, two of the resulting horizontal “sun star” points are still more pronounced than the others. 

If I turn the camera to portrait orientation the flare coincides with the orientation (becomes vertical). 

I’ve never seen this kind of flare with other lenses. 

Has anyone had a similar flare experience with this 35mm lens? Could this be caused or emphasized by the UVa filter? Is this unusual and potentially indicative of a problem with my copy of the lens? 

Here are a few example crops in horizontal (landscape) and vertical (portrait) orientations. 

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[MPJP]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

Have you tested without the filter? Let us know.

I'm going to shoot a filterless test roll this weekend if I can catch some late-day or early-morning sun.

[MauroRau]

Hello,

I have the same set up but never had this type of flare.

Try without filter also have a look at streaks/smear left from improper cleaning .

ciao

Mauro

[MPJP]

17 minutes ago, MauroRau said:

Hello,

I have the same set up but never had this type of flare.

Try without filter also have a look at streaks/smear left from improper cleaning .

ciao

Mauro

Thanks for the reply, Mauro, and for confirmation from your same set-up. I really appreciate it. Are you also using a UVa filter? 

My lens and filter are crystal clear — no streaks or smudges, which I always check for while shooting. I’m hoping it’s a flare introduced by the filter, so I’ll do some tests as soon as I can. This is when I wish I had a digital M body for some quick testing. 

[MauroRau]

Hello,

yes, same lens and same Leica UV filter but normal/little flare when shooting against the Sun.

ciao

Mauro

[Sebastian S]

i had a lens with haze and it made similar effects, as yours is new, it should be the filter

[hdmesa]

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Also where did you buy the filter? Unless it was purchased from an authorized Leica dealer, it will always be a fake.

[MPJP]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Also where did you buy the filter? Unless it was purchased from an authorized Leica dealer, it will always be a fake.

I bought the filter directly from Leica in Tokyo. 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, MPJP said:

I bought the filter directly from Leica in Tokyo. 

Understood. I got a similar flare with the 28 Summaron reissue when using a UV filter and shooting on film. I never bothered to figure out if it was the filter or what because I liked the effect.  
 

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[MPJP]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Understood. I got a similar flare with the 28 Summaron reissue when using a UV filter and shooting on film. I never bothered to figure out if it was the filter or what because I liked the effect.  

Ah, that's a great example. Thanks for sharing that beautiful image.

When I first encountered the flare I've posted, I also kind of liked it and sort of shrugged it off as a one-off aberration. But as it continued to happen, I started to question if I had a problem with my new lens.

As I mentioned, I will do some testing, but the film "shooting >>> developing" lag isn't ideal for troubleshooting. I might even try using an M mount adapter for some of my non-Leica digital bodies to see if I can replicate it with the lens/filter. Obviously that introduces some different variables, but might offer a quick confirmation of whether or not the filter is causing the flare.    

Edited October 24, 2024 by MPJP

[MPJP]

Post-test update:

As I mentioned, I don't have a digital M body to test my 35mm Summicron with, so I used an M-mount to XF-mount adapter to test the lens on my FujiFilm X-T5. 

On my X-T5 I compared two lenses, each with and without UV filters:

• 35mm Summicron ASPH II (11673) — the lens with the questionable flare. 
• XF23mmF1.4 R LM WR (35mm FF equivalent)

Interestingly on the X-T5, both lenses (when wide open) exhibit the same kind of flare as I depicted in the sample film images. However, on the X-T5 the flare is vertical instead of horizontal. So, while this type of flare does not seem to be unique to just my Summicron, why would it be oriented 90 degrees differently on a digital body versus a film body? Is lens flare so dramatically different because it is hitting a digital sensor rather than film? The lens is oriented the same on both bodies.  

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, MPJP said:

Post-test update:

As I mentioned, I don't have a digital M body to test my 35mm Summicron with, so I used an M-mount to XF-mount adapter to test the lens on my FujiFilm X-T5. 

On my X-T5 I compared two lenses, each with and without UV filters:

• 35mm Summicron ASPH II (11673) — the lens with the questionable flare. 
• XF23mmF1.4 R LM WR (35mm FF equivalent)

Interestingly on the X-T5, both lenses (when wide open) exhibit the same kind of flare as I depicted in the sample film images. However, on the X-T5 the flare is vertical instead of horizontal. So, while this type of flare does not seem to be unique to just my Summicron, why would it be oriented 90 degrees differently on a digital body versus a film body? Is lens flare so dramatically different because it is hitting a digital sensor rather than film? The lens is oriented the same on both bodies.  

The angle of lens flare is usually determined by the location of the light source in the frame, perhaps in combination with the aperture shape of the f-stop being used.

The vertical/horizontal flare could be the shutter speed used is interacting with the flare. Maybe the two different cameras have shutters that move in different directions. Try a much faster or slower shutter speed.

Edited November 7, 2024 by hdmesa

[MPJP]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Maybe the two different cameras have shutters that move in different directions. Try a much faster or slower shutter speed.

This is the answer. For some reason I had not considered how the shutter curtains could impact lens flare. I’ve been only focused on the lens as the cause. 

This link is one example of how a mechanical shutter causes a flare effect like I’m seeing. And the curtains in my MP open in the opposite orientation of my X-T5, which explains the opposing orientation of the flare. 

So, next is to load a roll and test at different shutter speeds, which should increase/decrease the flare. 

It still makes me a little uneasy that it is so difficult to find examples of this kind of flare online. But other than direct sun photos, my MP and 35 Summicron seem to be working exactly as I would expect — beautifully. 

Thanks, @hdmesa, for your follow-up. 

 

[250swb]

7 minutes ago, MPJP said:

 

It still makes me a little uneasy that it is so difficult to find examples of this kind of flare online. But other than direct sun photos, my MP and 35 Summicron seem to be working exactly as I would expect — beautifully. 

 

 

Do you think not finding similar examples online could be because most photographers don't point their camera directly at the sun with the aperture wide open? Just a thought.

 

[MPJP]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Do you think not finding similar examples online could be because most photographers don't point their camera directly at the sun with the aperture wide open? Just a thought.

 

Lol. Thanks for your snark. 

Low afternoon/morning sun can add great backlighting and shadows. I could find lots of wide- (and narrow-) aperture examples with flare as expected, but almost none exhibiting this unique horizontal flare I’ve seen with my MP and 35 Summicron. 

[farnz]

1 hour ago, MPJP said:

I could find lots of wide- (and narrow-) aperture examples with flare as expected, but almost none exhibiting this unique horizontal flare I’ve seen with my MP and 35 Summicron.

So here's your opportunity to promote it with these pictures as proof as being a "rare feature" that's only produced by your lens and advertise the lens for twice the price you paid for it.  If it sells then buy another 35/2 Summicron asph II lens and you're left with cash to spend on something else.  If it doesn't sell then you're no worse off.   (We can discuss my commission later. )

Pete.

[hansvons]

On 10/23/2024 at 1:17 AM, MPJP said:

I have a new 35mm Summicron ASPH II (11673) on my MP. I use a Leica UVa II filter on this lens as well as the lens hood.

I’ve noticed that when shooting at wide apertures directed at low sun, I get a strong horizontal flare. This is reduced at smaller apertures, but even then, two of the resulting horizontal “sun star” points are still more pronounced than the others. 

I have the predecessor, which is the same lens but has eight blades in the aperture, not 11 as yours. The Summicron ASPH lens is a character lens. It was designed in the '90s with film in mind. The main difference to the V4 King of Bokeh is the higher sharpness at full aperture and the relatively large aperture at full performance, which is f/4. It flares similarly and shows strong curvature at f/2 but without smeary corners. In my opinion, it's a sleeper and perhaps the modern-day most-Leica-esk lens, directly/on par behind the 50mm Summicon V4/V5.

Below is a picture shot directly into the sun. The second picture below was shot with the 35mm Summarit, which is based on the same design but has one element left out and starts at f/2.4. It's way better at suppressing flares, but you get less personality. 

 

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[250swb]

7 hours ago, MPJP said:

Lol. Thanks for your snark. 

Low afternoon/morning sun can add great backlighting and shadows. I could find lots of wide- (and narrow-) aperture examples with flare as expected, but almost none exhibiting this unique horizontal flare I’ve seen with my MP and 35 Summicron. 

Not snark thank you. Shooting wide open there is no 'containment' of flare, no aperture blades to direct light in a fast lens, just an excess of light bouncing around inside the lens elements and camera body. I'm hoping you aren't going down the route that is often heard where 'I only shoot wide open' is the mantra, but if that is the case you are going to be disappointed in many ways. If you want a starburst effect use a starburst filter (shudder) or stop the lens down and use the aperture blades to control flare and add a signature but it will still be a random effect totally dependant on the exact orientation of the lens to the light.. 

Edited November 7, 2024 by 250swb