Can anyone tell me which camera I've inherited? :)

[Dabsos]

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Hi everyone,

my grandfather bought this second hand, in the UK, in the 1930s. Does anyone know what it is/ if there might be an instruction manual floating around? 

Huge thanks!

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[pedaes]

31 minutes ago, Dabsos said:

Does anyone know what it is

Welcome to the Forum

It is a Leica IIIa of 1936 vintage. The lens dates to 1937.

If you Google the camera you should find an instruction book.

[zeitz]

https://butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_iiia/leica_iiia.htm

Phenomenal website with a huge number of instruction manuals.

[Dabsos]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

Welcome to the Forum

It is a Leica IIIa of 1936 vintage. The lens dates to 1937.

If you Google the camera you should find an instruction book.

Thank you! So a non-original lens then..? Would you say it is an upgrade?

[Dabsos]

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

https://butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_iiia/leica_iiia.htm

Phenomenal website with a huge number of instruction manuals.

Couldn't have been more what I was looking for -- thank you!!

[pedaes]

3 minutes ago, Dabsos said:

non-original lens

No, bodies and lenses were sold as separate items, as they are today.  They could well have been bought new together, or came together later. Who knows without original bill of sale.

[250swb]

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10 minutes ago, Dabsos said:

Thank you! So a non-original lens then..? Would you say it is an upgrade?

There are no ‘original’ lenses especially with a one year spread, the body was built, the lens was built, when they were sold together could be another year later.

[Dabsos]

Ah ok, of course, that makes sense. Thanks!

On another point, the manual for the camera that @zeitz sent me has an image of the camera which has a black body with silver dials etc, whereas mine is all silver, barring the leather casing. Did Leica sell two different models perhaps?

[pedaes]

46 minutes ago, Dabsos said:

two different models

Yes, black paint with nickel or chrome controls or chrome with same. The production lists will state what finish was applied to a given batch. At the time chrome was seen as more desirable, the opposite is probably true today.

The black paint wears through to give the famous Leica 'brassing'.

Welcome to the world of Leica!

Edited October 21, 2024 by pedaes

[willeica]

1 hour ago, Dabsos said:

Ah ok, of course, that makes sense. Thanks!

On another point, the manual for the camera that @zeitz sent me has an image of the camera which has a black body with silver dials etc, whereas mine is all silver, barring the leather casing. Did Leica sell two different models perhaps?

At the time of this camera both chrome and black paint cameras were produced. The 'furniture' on the black paint items was originally nickel plated, but in later years this was changed to chrome 'furniture'. When they were sold initially, the chrome models were more expensive than the black paint items, but 90 or so years later the surviving black items fetch a premium over the surviving chrome items. There are no rigid rules about this, it just the way that the collector market 'determines' the prices.

William 

[Dabsos]

Amazing, thank you both! Really interesting about how desirability changes. In any case, I won't sell so am happy with whatever value this has.

I think the sensible thing to do next is to have the camera serviced, since it probably last took a photo in the 1980s... It seems fine now, and certainly was fine then, but would you or anyone know what kind of price to expect in terms of servicing? Or are there common faults which are super expensive to fix which I could likely have?

Thanks so much again.

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, Dabsos said:

On another point, the manual for the camera that @zeitz sent me has an image of the camera which has a black body with silver dials etc, whereas mine is all silver, barring the leather casing. Did Leica sell two different models perhaps?

Your camera, the IIIa, is actually rare in black, though they were still using illustrations of a black camera in the manual. Its predecessor, the III, which lacks the 1/1000 top shutter speed but is otherwise very similar, is much more common in this black finish. The body covering that looks like leather is really (if original) a very durable vulcanised rubber product called Vulcanite.

If you're planning to use it, you may also want to take a look at the instructions for the post-war IIIf model, which I think makes some things clearer than the earlier manual (you can just ignore the stuff about the film type reminder and the flash sync dial and socket, which your camera doesn't have, and note the different position of the eyepiece adjuster and more widely spaced viewfinder and rangefinder windows on the IIIa):

https://butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_if_iif_iiif/leica_if_iif_iiif.htm

It's important to trim the film leader to avoid loading problems, which at worst can cause bits of film to chip off and get stuck in the mechanism. You want to end up with a profile like that shown on p29 of the IIIf manual, with a longer thin section than is standard today, with about 23 sprocket holes 'unpaired'. Cut between rather than across sprocket holes and round off the corner. The IIIa manual shows the film cutting template sold at the time, the ABLON, which is used with a sharp knife. If you didn't inherit one of these, collectors have made them expensive today, but modern versions are sold on ebay. The alternative is just to use a small pair of scissors, which is actually pretty easy. There are various tricks with business cards to avoid trimming, which to me are more trouble than they are worth.

Be careful with the Summar - the front element is pretty soft and easily scratched by careless cleaning. They are also prone to internal haze, which can be fixed by professional cleaning (which mine has needed for some time - it's like a special effect 'fog' lens at the moment!).

If your camera or lens need servicing, this is best done by a specialist - you'll get plenty of recommendations here for technicians in the EU or UK.

[Anbaric]

9 minutes ago, Dabsos said:

I think the sensible thing to do next is to have the camera serviced, since it probably last took a photo in the 1980s... It seems fine now, and certainly was fine then, but would you or anyone know what kind of price to expect in terms of servicing? Or are there common faults which are super expensive to fix which I could likely have?

Are you in Germany as your profile suggests, or in the UK? In the UK, I would go here:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/detailed-price-list

The standard service (£287.25) covers most things, but it will cost extra if (e.g.) the shutter curtains need replacing.

Edited October 21, 2024 by Anbaric

[Dabsos]

19 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Your camera, the IIIa, is actually rare in black, though they were still using illustrations of a black camera in the manual. Its predecessor, the III, which lacks the 1/1000 top shutter speed but is otherwise very similar, is much more common in this black finish. The body covering that looks like leather is really (if original) a very durable vulcanised rubber product called Vulcanite.

If you're planning to use it, you may also want to take a look at the instructions for the post-war IIIf model, which I think makes some things clearer than the earlier manual (you can just ignore the stuff about the film type reminder and the flash sync dial and socket, which your camera doesn't have, and note the different position of the eyepiece adjuster and more widely spaced viewfinder and rangefinder windows on the IIIa):

https://butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_if_iif_iiif/leica_if_iif_iiif.htm

It's important to trim the film leader to avoid loading problems, which at worst can cause bits of film to chip off and get stuck in the mechanism. You want to end up with a profile like that shown on p29 of the IIIf manual, with a longer thin section than is standard today, with about 23 sprocket holes 'unpaired'. Cut between rather than across sprocket holes and round off the corner. The IIIa manual shows the film cutting template sold at the time, the ABLON, which is used with a sharp knife. If you didn't inherit one of these, collectors have made them expensive today, but modern versions are sold on ebay. The alternative is just to use a small pair of scissors, which is actually pretty easy. There are various tricks with business cards to avoid trimming, which to me are more trouble than they are worth.

Be careful with the Summar - the front element is pretty soft and easily scratched by careless cleaning. They are also prone to internal haze, which can be fixed by professional cleaning (which mine has needed for some time - it's like a special effect 'fog' lens at the moment!).

If your camera or lens need servicing, this is best done by a specialist - you'll get plenty of recommendations here for technicians in the EU or UK.

That's really interesting that it is rare in black, but that also could explain why I have ended up with it, since my grandfather would not have had money to go for one which might have been more expensive in the market then.

Huge thanks for the recommendation on the manual for the IIIf, the more digestible the better for me at this stage. I have gone through the manual for the IIIa so will so if the manual you recommended explains things in a less prolix way haha. And thank you also for the cutting template warning -- I can't believe how expensive they are, and no, I did not inherit one, so a cheap non-original one sounds like the best option for me. Would this have any downsides? Or this?

I will definitely be careful with the Summar. It seems completely scratch free, although I can see some specs of dust, possibly on the inside. Professional cleaning could definitely make it shine.

I honestly don't know if the camera 'needs' servicing, I just think it is probably wise to do it... I do not know much about it really, and also wouldn't want to damage it when I do start to experiment with it. As someone who is a novice, I reckon having a professional check it over is probably wise.

 

Edited October 22, 2024 by Dabsos

[Dabsos]

8 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Are you in Germany as your profile suggests, or in the UK? In the UK, I would go here:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/detailed-price-list

The standard service covers most things, but it will cost extra if (e.g.) the shutter curtains need replacing.

Haha, kinda both... I live in Berlin, but also visit the UK a lot. Thank you for the link, if I haven't given the camera a service in Germany then I will go here. 287 GBP feels steep, but at the same time, I had no idea what to expect, and would want good quality. 

[Anbaric]

I think as William suggests the chrome bodies were more desirable in the 30s, which is why they switched to using mostly this finish by the time the IIIa came out. Modern collectors pounce on all rare finishes, of course. There were tens of thousands of III bodies in black, but apparently only 800 IIIa bodies in this finish, which I would guess are worth a lot more (though even the black III bodies fetch a premium today).

I suppose the only issue with a plastic template would be that if you nick it with the knife, it might be harder to cut the film smoothly next time. I did notice (and in fact very recently ordered) a metal one from HK, but I haven't received it yet and can't vouch for it. I've actually had no problems using scissors, I was just intrigued that someone has finally made a relatively cheap modern ABLON copy.

If the Summar looks clean, I would just shoot with it and see how you get on. A few specks of dust won't matter if there's no significant haze.

I'm sure you'll find someone good in Germany to service the camera. There are various discussions on the forum where some technicians are recommended, and others ... not (as in this thread about one UK repairer, which starts with 'mixed reviews' and goes rapidly downhill from there). The longest discussion is here, but you might want to skip to the end and read it backwards as it started back in 2010 (some of the experts recommended early on have retired or are sadly no longer with us). You might also like to message forum member @jerzy, who isn't too far away in Vienna.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Anbaric