M11-P advice for achieving the best colour accuracy

[Panchenlama]

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Hi everyone,

I recently bought an M11-P with a Summilux 50mm lens to use primarily for taking photos of large abstract paintings. I'm an artist and I need to be able to document my work in the most professional way possible - the M11-P w Summilux might not be many peoples' first choice of set-up for this task, but it ticked all my boxes. 

The camera is a joy to use in this context, but I'm struggling to achieve the results I would like in terms of colour accuracy, which of course is crucial to what I'm trying to achieve. I have pro LED lights that allow me to adjust the colour temp, so I usually set the lights to 5500k and then set the WB on the camera to the same value. When I import the shots, however, they are always skewed towards both yellow and magenta, coming out brown in tone. When I correct the WB in post using a calibrated grey card and the eye dropper, of course it's much improved, but despite hours of fiddling, it never seems quite right to me. There always seems to be some kind of light colour cast or 'veil' over the whole image and if I can get one colour to look right then the others are off. 

I've tried using the calibrite color checker, and this also doesn't fully solve the problem. I've used Lightroom (version 5) for years and I just downloaded a trial version of Capture One. I still can't get it perfect, but the initial results from C1 do seem to produce more 'natural' colours. When I zoom in to the image at 100%, however, the results from C1 in terms of fine detail and contrast are vastly better than LR. 

I wondered if anyone had any experience in this area they could share?

Does C1 generally achieve better colour results and fine detail with the M11 and is it therefore worth spending the time to learn how to use it?

Is there a way I can set up the camera so that the WB straight out of camera is more accurate and requires less adjustment?

Any thoughts gratefully received!

Thanks

Frederic

 

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[Skymark]

Since you have already eliminated major sources of in-camera inaccuracy you are probably grappling with subtle differences. If you have not already done so, I suggest you also calibrate your monitor for color accuracy have the screen brightness properly set and make sure your viewing/editiing environment is properly lit & with an appropriate brightness level. You might also consider printing your work so you can compare printed media alongside the orignial painting in the same light.

[Dazzajl]

Well, on the downside the M11 probably isn’t the ideal choice for accurate copy work but your setup will deliver fabulous edge to edge detail. Your camera is engineered to deliver the Leica look, whatever that actually is? Rather than a neutral colour palette. So you’re always going to be working against the tide a little to get accurate colours all around the colour wheel and in some cases, it’s always going to be a compromise. You can get the white balance spot on, then set to a known colour card in the software but there will always a be shift on a couple of hues that will lead to a tail chasing spin. You’ll bring a yellow into line but a purple somewhere else will shift and so it goes. 
 

You could get a more neutral rendering camera, like a GFX100 that was designed for commercial work, which might lessen the difference between the artwork and screen but still won’t eliminate it. And of course, as soon as your images are outside of your local calibrated workflow, you can’t control what people are seeing. Even the light falling on page or screen will shift not just the colours but the balance and relationship between them. 
 

A good way to reset your expectations is to take a look at the printed material in any major gallery that shows works from the masters. Even with all the best resources available, the renderings are close at best, never completely accurate. 

[RobW0]

@Panchenlama Have you tried setting the white balance from a gray card in the camera? Page 102 of the manual. This will set a custom white balance in camera for the lighting conditions present. I would be interested to know what kind of results you get with this method.

 

leica-m11-p_instructions_en_2.0.pdf

[lct]

Just a suggestion. Try another color profile than the M11's like matrix generic.

See:

 

[Photoworks]

Since I had to create an archive of a few hundred paintings and drawings and I have been doing it since the 4x5 film days, I can tell you you can get close and for some perfect.

I find capture one profiles more accurate and easier to get to the wanted result. I didn't find the the color checker password to be of any use to creating profiles, limiting the full-color spectrum to a few colors will never reach exact results. 
It is better to use the 140-patch version. but keep in mind that some colors and materials will never reproduce correctly on camera, this is more relevant with synthetic materials and fabrics. 

The part of your description that gives me concern is the LED lights as they have a challenge of reproducing accurate colors, even the Pro one. I would use color accurate Studio flashes, like Elinchrom or Profoto

[Velo-city]

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All the answers above are good. 
 

Colour science and calibration is far from simple and continues to evolve even in 2024. The colour pipeline has to be controlled from start to finish - and as has been mentioned this  not only includes the capture and playback devices but the viewing environment too. 
 

In the cinema world where I have some experience the colour pipelines are extremely complex and are just about maturing to where reasonably accurate and consistent pictures will appear across cinemas that matches the signed off colours in grading  theatres but even there it won’t be 100% - the type and age of projection setups differs quite a bit. Also bear in mind a monitor considered ‘colour accurate’  in terms of modern tv grading will cost somewhere between £30K+ and projectors much more. Then the room also has to adhere to certain lighting conditions and the whole setup gets measured and calibrated by engineers and people that know colour science. Quite detailed 3D LUTs are also used in the chain, creatively and for calibration.

Also there are far fewer cine cameras and because of the nature of the work are all backed by incredibly solid and well documented colour science - the camera creators  WANT and have to be part of the solution to the end result being what was expected.

This is really for context, to say as a home user, you can only do so much.  And there will be a percentage you’ll chase forever. 
 

I would definitely measure your shooting colour temperature rather than assume your LED lights put out the exact temperature (and the environment plays a part in any case since light bounces). Then calibrate your monitor best you can and try and keep your room lighting consistent (not easy if you have windows). Then try and enjoy the creative process of making them match the best you can according to what you think looks best. 

In a sense I’m actually a bit surprised Leica doesn’t focus more on the colour science / accuracy but they’re probably well aware they’re not heavily used for ‘pro’ work in that sense, and much of photography isn’t about purely accurate colour reproduction.
 

Edited October 14, 2024 by Velo-city

[Panchenlama]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. I'm aware this is a bit of a hornets nest and perhaps I'm being too picky. To give some more context, I'm shooting in a blacked-out room with no windows, with all my positions marked on the floor - I always shoot in this space with the same camera/lens/lights/settings/distances and the paintings are all the same size. I don't own a dedicated colour meter, but I borrowed one in the past to check the colour accuracy of my lights and they are pretty much dead on. The lights are Litepanels gemini 2x1 soft fixtures, which are apparently the most colour accurate LED panels you can currently get. I've been using them as they are until now, but I just bought some softboxes for them (for a more even light spread), which I haven't tried yet. I chose constant lights over flashes because I thought (since I'm spending so much) I might use them for painting as well, not just photography, which of course I can't do with flashes. I was also told they are easier to use than flash fixtures for people like myself with not much experience. I know I may not have the best possible set-up for what I want to do, but it's better than anything I've ever used in the past and I would hope to be able to achieve decent result with it, I think it's my inexperience and impatience with software and editing that's the problem, rather than hardware.

I make my living from making paintings, rather than photographing paintings, which is also important of course, but is an entirely unpaid aspect of my work that I have limited time and patience for. I guess I was hoping that having created such a controlled environment/set-up, I'd be able to spend some time getting one image exactly how I want it and then copy those settings and paste them onto all future shots and they would all look great and essentially the same. But it seems the real world doesn't work like that! I always shoot against the same white wall, but in my photos it comes out different each session, lighter/darker, bluish/greenish/magentaish, which perhaps no one else cares about but it bugs me!

I will try setting the WB using a grey card as someone suggested - I haven't tried that yet. Maybe I need to do an intensive C1 or LR course...

Would it help to use a tether and adjust the settings for the best in-camera results before I start the shoot proper? Is there anything else I can try?

 

[lct]

I would try and change the color profile as i suggested in post # 5 above.

[Velo-city]

@Panchenlama if you’re leaving everything identical between shoots and fully manual settings, and also doing the same at import - then the variance of the white wall colour could be light bounce from the paintings themselves, or the way the camera processes, or bit of both. 
 

If you take the same picture of the empty space and white wall, with you in the same place and same clothing, with all the same manual settings, and nothing changing within the space, then it should be pretty consistent day to day.

 

If funds allow, perhaps hire a professional photographer using a camera like a gfx or something, just for one session - and see how they get on and any other suggestions they have - it’s going to be a lot easier being with you in your space and seeing what you see. 
 

don’t forget you can’t control what the viewer sees on their equipment - most won’t even have a colour calibrated setup. So you can never really win 😀

Edited October 15, 2024 by Velo-city

[geotrupede]

Hi there, I have some experience with colour reproduction through photographs for documenting stones for architectural cladding and have managed good quality colours with various camera systems and various light sources.

Here are some pointers. 

-1- the light source needs to be able to reproduce colours, this means that the colour rendering of the light has to be high. LED sources usually suffer with the reproduction of reds (R9), hence even if all other colours look good, the red may be lacking. You may be able to compensate for this with the camera profile, but good rule is to use a Ra 90+ light source. A note here on the target, there are some with few colours and other with extensive set of colours. Obviously the more colours in the target the higher the accuracy of the calibration. However a light which is not able to reproduce colours is more important that the target itself.

-2- Once the light is a good one you are 90% there. next step is building a specific camera profile for that light that day. I have used xrite targets. use a calibration software that can read the target and save a new specific camera profile.  If you use indirect lighting mind the surface that reflects it, it could skew the colour rendition too. If you use direct lighting beware of differences in exposure for various portion of your painting, for example if the light beam is not uniform over its surface, etc.

-4- apply the custom camera profile to the image you need to use (which is shot under the same exact light conditions) in your editor

-5- Done!

Colour checker camera calibration is a good piece of software which allows all the above in combination with your editor of choice. 

Alternatively you can use argyll but it is a little more involved as it comes with command line interface.

Once the image is calibrated with the calibrated profile you should not start adjusting contrast and other things as it would be no longer correct. 

Last but not least, correct exposure! For that you can read the mean grey levels in the final image and ensure they sit at the right values.

And finally if you use C1, there is an odd folder into library, colour synch or similar where you need to place the custom profiles, which is a little unpractical when you start having many.

Good luck!

G.

 

https://www.argyllcms.com

https://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=1947&Action=Support&SoftwareID=2324

 

[geotrupede]

PS colour temperature. not relevant if you shoot in RAW. the colour profile will adjust it all. so do as you do, set a value and leave constant. then the calibration will work around it.

[algrove]

Agree a grey card to set WB can sometimes help. I have been using C1 for some years now and find my colors come out where I want them, but I seldom copy paintings or whatever. My wife paints and I copy her paintings and she accepts my results even though her eyes are MUCH better than mine in this regard.

One thing you did not mention was how you view your results. Monitor only? Perhaps try printing some examples to see how they render versus monitor views.

Also what import modes do you use in C1? It might affect your results.

Edited October 15, 2024 by algrove

[Panchenlama]

21 hours ago, algrove said:

Also what import modes do you use in C1? It might affect your results.

I'm totally new to C1, I just used all the default settings, what import modes should I be using?

[Panchenlama]

21 hours ago, geotrupede said:

 

 

 

21 hours ago, geotrupede said:

Last but not least, correct exposure! For that you can read the mean grey levels in the final image and ensure they sit at the right values.

How would I do this? Would I need to shoot a calibrated grey card target? How do I then check if the final image sits at the right values?

I currently use the A4 size version of the xrite colour checker target in a frame size of approx. 2m x 3m, will that work ok or do I need to get the larger target they sell?

Until now I've used the xrite colour checker in LR and it absolutely doesn't automatically adjust the WB, I always have to use the dipper tool on a WB card target. Maybe I'm using it wrong?

[Panchenlama]

21 hours ago, geotrupede said:

-1- the light source needs to be able to reproduce colours, this means that the colour rendering of the light has to be high. LED sources usually suffer with the reproduction of reds (R9), hence even if all other colours look good, the red may be lacking. You may be able to compensate for this with the camera profile, but good rule is to use a Ra 90+ light source.

My lights have a CRI/Ra rating of 99, I don't think they are the problem.

[LocalHero1953]

Some suggestions for factors that should be addressed.......

Is your monitor calibrated? This is vital.

It's not clear from what I read if you are using the Calibrite Color Checker to create a custom profile for your camera and light (I hope you are), or just as a visual check.  

It sounds like you are not familiar with C1, and you are on a very old version of Lightroom. Are you using the latest version of Adobe Camera Raw, which would include a profile for the M11? (Though your own custom profile would be better). What camera profile are you using in Lightroom.

IMO printing your images will not help if they are not looking right on the monitor: it will just add another layer of uncertainty and confusion (monitor calibration, printer and paper profiles etc).

I don't think @pippy uses a M11 for this, but he photographs artworks and antiques professionally, so should have good advice.

Edited October 16, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[pippy]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

...I don't think @pippy uses a M11 for this, but he photographs artworks and antiques professionally, so should have good advice.

I will, of course, try to help as much as possible but it is difficult to advise the OP unless I know exactly how they are going about things at the moment.

Accurate colour balance is usually actually a pretty straightforward thing to achieve (as long as all light sources are colour-matched to one another) and I will give such advice as I think might be useful. There is no Alchemy / Magic involved in the process and your M11 / Summilux pairing is every bit as capable of capturing 'correct' colours as any other camera so don't worry about your equipment being the 'problem'; far from it. The important factor to make life simple (IMX) is calibrating the colour-balance for the capture - even when shooting DNG / RAW - in the first place. You say that;

"I usually set the lights to 5500k and then set the WB on the camera to the same value."

You have a Colour-Checker so use it as it was intended to be used. Unless you are absolutely sure that this 5500K setting is 100% accurate do not set your lights / camera to this temp. simply because you assume it will be correct. By all means do the 5500K thing but check - using the colour-checker and your software - to confirm that each of the RGB channels are recording the neutral squares equally and, if not, adjust accordingly. The 'Eye-Dropper' tool is only a good thng to use if you are absolutely sure of the accuracy of your source...

FWIW my own 'Daylight Temperature' studio softboxes vary from 5300K to 6800K and one or two of my regular shooting lenses themselves vary in their colour-transfer profiles which, in turn, requires a colour-correction re-set with each lens-swap.

I'm not 'in the studio' so can't capture / show screengrabs (which would be useful in terms of clarification) at the moment but I will do so when the factory opens in the morning.

Philip.

Edited October 16, 2024 by pippy

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[geotrupede]

 

[geotrupede]

and for exposure see the mrfium grey in the checker patches and use the picker to check values

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray