The Leica M11 images out of camera

[Derbyshire Man]

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1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

Well, I definitely hope I end up in your camp @Derbyshire Man!

i like so much about my x100v, I’d say it’s an incredible camera for the money. But I don’t love the images that come out of it - they’re not terrible but there’s a harshness which I put down to the apsc (since it’s my first non full frame camera in decades) but could be other factors. But I certainly enjoy using it. 
 

The Leica viewfinder not only seems ancient, but to be honest my initial reaction is it’s small,  dark and uncomfortable. Comparing the x100v in optical mode, the mamiya 7ii and the Leica, the Leica is by far the worst viewfinder. I had to get them all out to check my eyes hadn’t deteriorated overnight! It’s like looking through an ND. That’s just one if a few obvious things I wasn’t overjoyed with picking it up. 
 

Anyway I said I wouldn’t say more until I’ve used it for at least a while so I’ll shut up there. Its an experiment that I want to give a proper chance of success, and ultimately will be what comes out of it as well as how it feels. 

Actually one quick question to save me asking in the firmware section, it didn’t come with the latest. Would you update or leave? Usually I’d update any device but the firmware topic wasn’t reassuring reading…..

 

As a footnote, I’m also quite liking the Q3 now I’ve used it more, but still early days there too. But my hunch is if an M12 is released soon, and knowing my luck it will, and has either EVF or hybrid display, I’ll trade in the 11 and go straight to that.

My opinion on the VF competition between Fuji and Leica depends on whether one is in the mindset of manual focus. Trying to accurately manual focus with the Fuji is slow and painful. In many/most situations  I’m as quick or quicker to manual focus on the Leica as autofocus on the Fuji, especially in scene where there’s a lot going on/multiple potential AF targets. 
 

The other absolutely essential thing with the Leica is to get the diopter setup right. Once you do that the rangefinder and focussing is a thing of beauty. 
 

I too started off thinking I’d chose an M11 EVF or M12 EVF and I now strongly suspect I wouldn’t! Not saying one should be offered but I don’t think I’d go for it given an RF/EVF choice. 

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[Velo-city]

7 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

The other absolutely essential thing with the Leica is to get the diopter setup right.

Which on most cameras I’ve used is a trivial and free adjustment that multiple users can take advantage of. 😄

On the M11, sadly a different story.🥲 It’s on my list though, although it’s not going to brighten  it up of course. 

[Derbyshire Man]

8 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

Which on most cameras I’ve used is a trivial and free adjustment that multiple users can take advantage of. 😄

On the M11, sadly a different story.🥲 It’s on my list though, although it’s not going to brighten  it up of course. 

I’ve not paid for one yet!

[JoshuaR]

I'm surprised to hear that you find the M10 viewfinder dim compared to the X100 series; my experience was just the opposite. One basic thing to try (it sounds so silly but I'm just going to say it) is to make sure that your viewfinder is clean (both back and front!) *and* that the little rangefinder window is clean as well—that's the tiny square window on the front of the camera near the shutter-speed dial. It's very easy to get fingerprints on the glass surfaces, especially on the rangefinder window, and that will seriously diminish the brightness and clarity of the viewfinder.

I carry a microfiber cloth in my pocket and regularly wipe off the glass. 

When I tried my first M, in a Leica Store, I couldn't focus it, but the guy working there was like, "try wiping down the windows," and there was an instant improvement.

[hdmesa]

29 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

I'm surprised to hear that you find the M10 viewfinder dim compared to the X100 series; my experience was just the opposite. One basic thing to try (it sounds so silly but I'm just going to say it) is to make sure that your viewfinder is clean (both back and front!) *and* that the little rangefinder window is clean as well—that's the tiny square window on the front of the camera near the shutter-speed dial. It's very easy to get fingerprints on the glass surfaces, especially on the rangefinder window, and that will seriously diminish the brightness and clarity of the viewfinder.

I carry a microfiber cloth in my pocket and regularly wipe off the glass. 

When I tried my first M, in a Leica Store, I couldn't focus it, but the guy working there was like, "try wiping down the windows," and there was an instant improvement.

They likely have their finger over that little window. No way in hell the M11 viewfinder is darker than the X100VI. I never used the V or VI optical viewfinders because they were crap, IMO.

[Derbyshire Man]

I suspect the comparison is EVF in the X100 to RF in Leica. 

[hdmesa]

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1 minute ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I suspect the comparison is EVF in the X100 to RF in Leica. 

Nope:

2 hours ago, Velo-city said:

...The Leica viewfinder not only seems ancient, but to be honest my initial reaction is it’s small,  dark and uncomfortable. Comparing the x100v in optical mode...

 

[Derbyshire Man]

You’re right. No, I don’t get that either. The VF in the M is much better. Although I prefer the information in the X100 optical VF. I can see no reason why that couldn’t be copied to great effect in the M(and yes, there could be a function to suppress it all for dinosaurs). 

[hdmesa]

9 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

You’re right. No, I don’t get that either. The VF in the M is much better. Although I prefer the information in the X100 optical VF. I can see no reason why that couldn’t be copied to great effect in the M(and yes, there could be a function to suppress it all for dinosaurs). 

The film-M style LED display is obsolete for digital Ms in my opinion. I hate the arrow method of setting the exposure manually. It's one of the biggest reasons I don't use my M in full manual very much. It's almost easier to just use a light meter 🫠

I wish I could turn the LEDs off completely except for it to light up when I move the rear wheel so that it shows the level of exposure comp being applied (shooting with auto shutter and auto ISO). 

[Velo-city]

Will check it out again but it was so obviously darker than both the others (Fuji in optical). It’s all spotlessly clean (I’m at least reasonably intelligent) and my finger wasn’t over anything. So sounds like that’s unexpected and something I need to check out.

I don’t mind the Fuji optical but not saying others should like it - I just never really thought about it - it’s bright, clear and has a lot of useful information overlaid. Even if the next m didn’t have a similar dual ovf/evf, it should definitely replace the overlay with an oled type one. The beauty of that is it could be made to look exactly as it does in the m11 (‘classic mode’ maybe?) for those that wanted it, as well as much more advanced for those who prefer that workflow.  

[lct]

The M11's OVF is basically similar to my other M's since the seventies. I don't want it to change since the M11 has an EVF as well. As for faux RFs a-la-Fuji i'm not interested at all but YMMV.

Edited November 4, 2024 by lct

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The film-M style LED display is obsolete for digital Ms in my opinion. I hate the arrow method of setting the exposure manually. It's one of the biggest reasons I don't use my M in full manual very much. It's almost easier to just use a light meter 🫠

I wish I could turn the LEDs off completely except for it to light up when I move the rear wheel so that it shows the level of exposure comp being applied (shooting with auto shutter and auto ISO). 

It does show the amount of over and under exposure in manual. Has done so since the M6. Personally I find it the best system ever devised. 

[hdmesa]

40 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It does show the amount of over and under exposure in manual. Has done so since the M6. Personally I find it the best system ever devised. 

But with "•" and "> <", not a visual scale. A scale is much faster to evaluate and move the exposure in the right direction, at least for me it is.

Edited November 4, 2024 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

Will check it out again but it was so obviously darker than both the others (Fuji in optical). It’s all spotlessly clean (I’m at least reasonably intelligent) and my finger wasn’t over anything. So sounds like that’s unexpected and something I need to check out.

I don’t mind the Fuji optical but not saying others should like it - I just never really thought about it - it’s bright, clear and has a lot of useful information overlaid. Even if the next m didn’t have a similar dual ovf/evf, it should definitely replace the overlay with an oled type one. The beauty of that is it could be made to look exactly as it does in the m11 (‘classic mode’ maybe?) for those that wanted it, as well as much more advanced for those who prefer that workflow.  

X100 series OVF optics look like a plastic fishbowl compared to the M rangefinder. I could never bring myself to use it, and it may as well have not existed. I would have rather had a better EVF on the X100 cameras instead of the hybrid solution.

[lct]

11 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

But with numbers, not a visual scale. A scale is much faster to evaluate and move the exposure in the right direction, at least for me it is.

The M5 did something like that if memory serves. Thanks no thank but again YMMV.

[hdmesa]

16 minutes ago, lct said:

The M5 did something like that if memory serves. Thanks no thank but again YMMV.

It was already mentioned the old school meter could coexist.

I'd just be happy if they left the current meter alone but they gave us the traditional exposure comp scale that it switched to when exposure compensation was invoked via the rear wheel.

 

Edited November 4, 2024 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:31 AM, hdmesa said:

But with "•" and "> <", not a visual scale. A scale is much faster to evaluate and move the exposure in the right direction, at least for me it is.

But they do indicate half a stop (dimmed) or  >= full stop (extinguished) under or over. I quite like the system. Anything more would clutter up the viewfinder

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

But they do indicate half a stop (dimmed) or  >= full stop (extinguished) under or over. I quite like the system. Anything more would clutter up the viewfinder

Yes, but my pea brain reacts poorly to visual queues that require an extra layer of interpretation. Any new/different metering interface could be optional so that the purists could continue unbothered.

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Hallo,

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