Do I really need an autofocus camera in addition to my M10-R?

[simplicity]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb M11 for me:

Beautiful.

And I presume that no autofocus would ever be needed for such a sceene.

Right but size & weight is also a factor to be considered - in this case it's easy to take such a small camera on a ride: 

my M with 35 ultron is about 920g for example. Acutal D-Lux8 ist 400g - half a kilo - that is not a small amount. 

 

To be honest I asked for autofocus - right - but size and weight also comes into factor.

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[RexGig0]

If/When the children start becoming interested in sports or performing arts, AF may become useful, again. Another factor could be when one may wish to shoot in conditions that cause glare. Sometimes, I simply cannot see well enough, through the viewfinder, to use the rangefinder, forcing me to settle for using the distance and DOF scales, if all I have is a Leica M camera. I often choose to use these scales to focus with wide-angle lenses, so, I do know how to use them, but think task is more complex when using 50mm, 75mm, 85mm, and 90mm lenses.

My wife and I are avid nature/wildlife/bird photographers, so, still find AF useful for those tasks. 

[Photojournoguy]

As a hobbyist, I exclusively use the M to capture my kids (three young ones 7 and under) in a purely documentary style, and haven’t looked back over the past four years of doing so.

Does it capture every moment that exists? Nope! Nor do I want to be able to.

It allows me to be thoughtful and stretch my mental muscles to capture what I want. If I don’t make it, that’s on me (which is my next favorite aspect).

I would absolutely take it to sporting events and whatnot, but high speed close ups from across the field isn’t what I would capture. There’s tons of opportunity to capture anything in a meaningful way, and in a documentary approach rather than capturing the ‘winning basket.’ 

[simplicity]

Thank you very much @Photojournoguy! 
that sounds great!
what focal lengths do you often use? (I am just interested)

Edited October 12, 2024 by simplicity

[Photojournoguy]

2 hours ago, simplicity said:

Thank you very much @Photojournoguy! 
that sounds great!
what focal lengths do you often use? (I am just interested)

I only have/use a 35, which was always the case for the M.

Your point on ‘not entirely feeling it’ with the Fuji absolutely resonated with me as, prior to M, I had an A73 with an enviable lineup of lenses across all key lengths. At one point across months I barely ever picked it up, and finally realized it wasn’t because I lost interest in photography, I lost interest in the Sony (and the supercomputer AF nature of it all). The results were there, the process wasn’t. I had a Voigt 40 that I used most of the time which was manual, but the experience on the Sony left much to be desired long-term.

Not that I recommend blindly for others, but I also shoot everything in Monochrom.

That and the M in the first place came from a decision of the heart rather than the head (and practicality). After some time of reflecting before taking the plunge, I knew what I wanted to feel inspired and make me WANT to capture (aka ‘artistic voice’ if I want to sound a bit daft). It was and remains about the journey and experience of capturing, and while I do want results, I only want them if I capture them in a way I find enjoyable. The ‘having AF to get the job done even though I don’t love it’ even for use cases doesn’t fit into my personal philosophy. It’s all about what works for me, since if I love what I’m doing, the results will come (that I enjoy and hopefully others will too, though others’ appreciation is secondary).

Being around my kids every second means if I don’t capture a shot I wish I did or I couldn’t get the settings fast enough or maybe I didn’t even have a camera with me or the 35 isn’t ideal, ‘that’s okay’. There’s a million more seconds, situations and life to unfold right after ‘that’ second.

If all I wanted to do was record everything, I could just make some popcorn and watch indoor cameras. I want to interpret what I find actually interesting in front of me, and by definition, need to be selective. A lot isn’t interesting.

To an earlier point made, I kept the full Sony kit for 6 months after buying the M, at which point I sold it all as I literally didn’t pick it up ONCE during that time. It literally became my webcam for Zoom meetings with my 24 1.4.

[Kim Dahl]

3 minutes ago, Photojournoguy said:

I only have/use a 35, which was always the case for the M.

Your point on ‘not entirely feeling it’ with the Fuji absolutely resonated with me as, prior to M, I had an A73 with an enviable lineup of lenses across all key lengths. At one point across months I barely ever picked it up, and finally realized it wasn’t because I lost interest in photography, I lost interest in the Sony (and the supercomputer AF nature of it all). The results were there, the process wasn’t. I had a Voigt 40 that I used most of the time which was manual, but the experience on the Sony left much to be desired long-term.

Not that I recommend blindly for others, but I also shoot everything in Monochrom.

That and the M in the first place came from a decision of the heart rather than the head (and practicality). After some time of reflecting before taking the plunge, I knew what I wanted to feel inspired and make me WANT to capture (aka ‘artistic voice’ if I want to sound a bit daft). It was and remains about the journey and experience of capturing, and while I do want results, I only want them if I capture them in a way I find enjoyable. The ‘having AF to get the job done even though I don’t love it’ even for use cases doesn’t fit into my personal philosophy. It’s all about what works for me, since if I love what I’m doing, the results will come (that I enjoy and hopefully others will too, though others’ appreciation is secondary).

Being around my kids every second means if I don’t capture a shot I wish I did or I couldn’t get the settings fast enough or maybe I didn’t even have a camera with me or the 35 isn’t ideal, ‘that’s okay’. There’s a million more seconds, situations and life to unfold right after ‘that’ second.

If all I wanted to do was record everything, I could just make some popcorn and watch indoor cameras. I want to interpret what I find actually interesting in front of me, and by definition, need to be selective. A lot isn’t interesting.

To an earlier point made, I kept the full Sony kit for 6 months after buying the M, at which point I sold it all as I literally didn’t pick it up ONCE during that time. It literally became my webcam for Zoom meetings with my 24 1.4.

Wow…

I was inside your website. Really nice b/w photos. All of them have atmosphere and an artistic expression.

Is it only the Leica M that you have used and do you stick to one focal length?  Monochrome and APO 35

[Photojournoguy]

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9 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

Wow…

I was inside your website. Really nice b/w photos. All of them have atmosphere and an artistic expression.

Is it only the Leica M that you have used and do you stick to one focal length?  Monochrome and APO 35

That’s very generous and thoughtful, thank you Kim!

Yes and yes.  With the exception of maybe a single photo on my site, everything was captured with that combo.

[JoshuaR]

@simplicity, congratulations on your M10-R! I have a similar setup—I use an M10-R and M10M with a bunch of M lenses—mainly 28, 35, 50, but also 21, 90, and 135—mainly to photograph my family life with two small kids, six and one. I used to have a big Fuji system but sold it all about five years ago to move to Leica.

My own experience so far has been that no, I don't need autofocus. For extended periods I've used only the Ms, with great results. At the same time, I've often felt that I "needed" some sort of other camera alongside them, so I get where that feeling comes from. I've had a Q2, GR III, GR IIIx.... In the end, I've sold them all. I just prefer using the Ms. They are small and fun, the results are stellar, and somehow the M experience doesn't break the flow of being with my family—I hate looking at my kids through an EVF, with all the little autofocus boxes.

Right now I'm experimenting with having an SL2-S as an alternative camera. But that's actually been an instructive experience. I thought I'd use it for autofocus, especially while photographing my son's sports stuff. But actually I've sold almost the AF lenses, and now only use it almost exclusively with my M lenses. It's useful in very dim light, or with very fast lenses (50 f/1.2) or very long lenses (90mm, 135mm). But always with manual focus. I was surprised to find that I even preferred photographing my kid's soccer games using a 135mm M lens over an autofocus 70-200. So it's proven to be a non-M camera that I might keep using—but mainly as a sort of EVF for M glass.

I've been eyeing the Q3 for a long time (and now the Q3 43), and have had great experiences with those cameras in the past. But, oddly, the thing that turns me off them now is autofocus. I just prefer the OVF with my family—or, as second-best, the completely unobstructed through-the-lens view of the SL EVF, without focus peaking or any of that stuff turned on. (I set it to black and white, too, to keep it minimal.) And, if money was tight and I had to sell the SL2-S, I could happily and instantly go back to just my M cameras with 28, 35, 50—in fact, I that setup 95% of the time.

Who knows whether any of this will be helpful to you. I'm really just saying: Yes, it's reasonable to want an AF (or other) camera to go with your Ms. But, also, it's completely plausible to go without AF, too. And in my experience the M system with 28, 35, 50 (and perhaps 90) has been more than sufficient for the vast majority of my family photography so far.

Edited October 13, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[simplicity]

@JoshuaRothman and @Photojournoguy 

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I was seeking for such personal experiences and it is very interesting to listen to them (read about them in fact ;-)). And it seems that I am at a similar point in life that you have already experienced. It's not a law that this is necessarily my way but it shows clearly that it CAN be a way that works! 

btw: makes me very happs to read about such experiences 😍

[simplicity]

Am 13.10.2024 um 03:00 schrieb JoshuaRothman:

but mainly as a sort of EVF for M glass.

I completely understand that you wanted to try/use the SL2-S. Hade one for testing purposes from Leica for two weeks. Really great body and superb EVF. A VERY comfortable EVF for your M lenses 😉 - perhaps the Visoflex 2 could be an option for you? 

 

@Photojournoguy the picutes on your website: absolutely amazing! 

 

[F456]

On 10/10/2024 at 2:03 PM, simplicity said:

From the wedding photography I still have the Fuji X-H2S with 23/1.4 + 33/1.4 + 75/1.2 and 16-55/2.8 "left". A great quality equipment, but the camera doesn't motivate me to pick it up. 
To buy the Leica I had sold my fuji X100V. Of course, I'm currently looking at the X100VI and often think about whether I need an AF camera in addition to my M? 
For snapshots I can also take the M with a 28mm lens with e.g. aperture 8 and have almost everything in focus without really focusing necessary.

Maybe someone has gone through something similar or dealt with similar thoughts? 

Welcome to my world; I have been through something similar.

In your case I wonder if your loss of motivation with your AF Fujifilm situation is not just the result of having had your fill of wedding photography but also that fact that the X-H series bodies are more like an SLR than a rangefinder.  A few years ago I bought a new X-H1 to go with my X-Pro system but sold it after about a year because I was always reaching for the rangefinder-style X-Pro bodies, where not only the handling felt much more like using a Leica (even despite all the extra buttons and command dials) but also I had the option of a direct vision viewfinder together with frame lines ( much like the X100-series) or an EVF at the touch of a small selector lever (again like the X100).

You can usually get good quality secondhand X-Pro1/2/3 bodies from Wex; I recently re-added an X-Pro1 to my X-Pro3s that way and it is faultless (so far).

Btw, I love the X100 VI for its IBIS but though it's useful to have the 40MP I think the earlier 26MP is just great. 

Would love to hear what you are feeling about it all at this stage, a few days on...  And just to add, I still really enjoy using Leica M kit but I could do with decluttering a bit there.. and it' hard to do without regrets down the line!

[FrozenInTime]

It is only a matter of time before someone rigs up a DJI LIDAR module and focus motor to a Leica M lens mounted on a M body, and tells youtube and the world it is the solution to every problem - it won't be.  Probably done long ago for 0.8 cine lenses.

[simplicity]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb F456:

In your case I wonder if your loss of motivation with your AF Fujifilm situation is not just the result of having had your fill of wedding photography but also that fact that the X-H series bodies are more like an SLR than a rangefinder.

Yes I think that's true (at least partially). X-Pro series always was my wish (previous to Leica) but X-H series was the fact-based choice for performance when shooting weddings. Always loved the X-pro concept. Now I have my Leica and now it would be possible for me to have Leica looking camera next to my Leica 😉. (for a short time I had an X-Pro1)

Could imagine having an X-Pro additionally. However, this requires a long period of reflection if it is really necessary. (here in Germany the X-pro "used" market is heavily overpriced - around 1000€ for a X-Pro2). 

 

[F456]

29 minutes ago, simplicity said:

Yes I think that's true (at least partially). X-Pro series always was my wish (previous to Leica) but X-H series was the fact-based choice for performance when shooting weddings. Always loved the X-pro concept. Now I have my Leica and now it would be possible for me to have Leica looking camera next to my Leica 😉. (for a short time I had an X-Pro1)

Could imagine having an X-Pro additionally. However, this requires a long period of reflection if it is really necessary. (here in Germany the X-pro "used" market is heavily overpriced - around 1000€ for a X-Pro2). 

 

So difficult to work out how to balance duplicate systems: which you'd find yourself turning to more if you had both Leica r/f and say Fujifilm 'r/f-style' and then, in the process of ensuring that one system doesn't become a redundant duplication, deciding what lenses to keep or buy or change for each. 
 

Personally I find that the choice is made harder still because on the one hand I know I'd be more decisive with just 3 or 4 lenses for my Leicas (and only ever 1 or 2 at a time for the shoot in question) but the 'jewellery' aspect i.e. the craftsmanship and solidity of the lenses sends me in the wrong direction: wanting to hunt down, travel and collect some more.

If it's any help, the nearest I get to sanity in these decisions is by making sure to try  and use all that I have and no matter what the history, romance or cachet of the kit not to ignore sober facts like eyesight, effect of spectacles on viewfinder comfort and coverage and how many pictures are properly focused.  (So in my case the Leicas are best with wide angles  – and detachable finders for 21 SEM and 24 EM - and up to standard lenses, though I actually love short tele pictures. For tele, much though I used to love the Leica 75, 90 & 135 I can get the shot especially at wide aperture far more quickly and instinctively now with AF for dynamic subjects on the 56 & 90 Fujinons and the image quality is first class. In my case, eyes are not all they once were!

As it happens I use Leica only for film while Fujifilm is for digital but ironically using film simulations!  
 

Reading through the posts on your thread I have taken on board a lot of wisdom and interesting slants from others and mulling over and letting their wisdom drip through makes me think that a period of shooting what you already have, Fujifilm and Leica, for a range of your favourite topics / projects / impulses may well bring the answers - and they may be different from thoughts you have right now!

 

[charlesphoto99]

The idea that there are 'smart' cameras has done more to sully the photographic arts than just about anything else. This striving for easy 'perfection' (newsflash: there is no such thing) with the gear has swept aside the fact that it's often in the small imperfections and mistakes that happen that makes photographs seem more real and emotional, and in particular M photography because one doesn't actually see what one is photographing (until the dang EVF came along), so one must also use one's imagination, which can translate into deeper, more mysterious and beautiful images exactly because they aren't perfect (what in life is?). 

As far as children, I've photographed mine two exclusively with M's over the last fifteen years. Everything from daily life to soccer games with a 135mm. Never felt I missed a thing due to not having autofocus or an EVF. The biggest mistake many photographers make in relation to children is to not get down to their level, instead hovering over them, apart. Put yourself in their shoes so to speak, try and see the world as they see it. No AF in the world can do that. 

 

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[simplicity]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb F456:

Reading through the posts on your thread I have taken on board a lot of wisdom and interesting slants from others and mulling over and letting their wisdom drip through makes me think that a period of shooting what you already have, Fujifilm and Leica, for a range of your favourite topics / projects / impulses may well bring the answers - and they may be different from thoughts you have right now!

Thank you very much! 😍

Edited October 14, 2024 by simplicity

[F456]

4 hours ago, simplicity said:

Thank you very much! 😍

You are very welcome!

[simplicity]

Just got an idea while photographing: 

an argument „pro“ M camera. 
with modern cameras you very often have a joystick on the camera (or touch function). 

while changing the focus point with the joystick and then focusing etc (because I have always used Single point) you can easily focus manually. So often, clearly not always, you need the same time to take the picture. 

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Look here: Leica M

[M11 for me]

To me that focusing question is simply about how fast do I have to be. For landscape or architecture its great to be manual. And most of what I do personally belongs to that category. That is why I am with M.

If you do a lot of people or moving subjects and you have the impression that this causes you problems then you have 2 options:

1) Train your manual skills. We know of lots of colleagues who say that they are as quick manually or at least it does not take them longer. Fine then. I wonder if they ever had an eye detect auto focus . . .

- Or just buy an SL2 or equivalent.

[M11 for me]

At a reception with lots of people I want to have a shot done within 1 or max 2 seconds. Like that I have rarely people looking into the lens of my camera (that is what I would like to avoid). I belong to the group of shooters that cannot perform that with my M. It takes me to much time.