M Cameras

[Jerry Attrik]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Not so much a 'New Topic',but a, perhaps naive, question. Who is the accredited original designer of the 'M' body?

I have been bouncing around on many pages of bumf regarding the Leica and the popular answer to the question

refers back to Oskar Barnack, who died on 16th. of January 1936. That was a little before the M bodies were a glint 

in someone's eyes.

Edited September 30, 2024 by Jerry Attrik

[mujk]

I don't think there was a single person who can be named as the designer the M. If I understand correctly the development was started during Oskar Barnack's time and continued throughout the war years and after, with several key patents granted during the years. Some sources mention that that Dr. Ludwig Leitz II (son of Ernst Leitz II) played a leading role in the development of the M3 as responsible for the company's research and development activities since 1939. Willi Stein is also mentioned as the "father" of the M3 in his role as head of the photographic department. And there were many others.

[UliWer]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

M3 rose from the from the form factor of IIIg.

I don‘t think that‘s correct. As explained above Leitz was working for a long time on a new camera before the M3 was introduced in 1954. The main features were a larger mount with bayonet, integration of rangefinder and viewfinder into the body and viewfinder frames for different focal lengthes. The III-series had none of these features and the IIIg was only introduced in 1957 - after the M3! - keeping the main features of the Barnack camera with the only exception of frames for 90mm in the viewfinder though the rangefinder was still separated.

Everybody thinks that the outward design of the M3 was the original one and the M2 was just a simplified later design. But really it’s the other way round: the original  design model by Heinrich Janke was the simple M2-version. You can still see the wooden model in the showrooms at Wetzlar. Ernst Leitz III thought it was not elegant enough, so the small „window frames“ and the „wave“ on the front of the M3 were added - which were very expensive to produce. For the „cheaper“ M2 and all following models they went back to the original Janke design without these embellishments. 

P.S. You may find some information in Günter Osterloh‘s book „50 years Leica M“ (it is in German and English), Heel Verlag 2004.  

Edited September 30, 2024 by UliWer

[bobtodrick]

9 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I don‘t think that‘s correct. As explained above Leitz was working for a long time on a new camera before the M3 was introduced in 1954. The main features were a larger mount with bayonet, integration of rangefinder and viewfinder into the body and viewfinder frames for different focal lengthes. The III-series had none of these features and the IIIg was only introduced in 1957 - after the M3! - keeping the main features of the Barnack camera with the only exception of frames for 90mm in the viewfinder though the rangefinder was still separated.

Everybody thinks that the outward design of the M3 was the original one and the M2 was just a simplified later design. But really it’s the other way round: the original  design model by Heinrich Janke was the simple M2-version. You can still see the wooden model in the showrooms at Wetzlar. Ernst Leitz III thought it was not elegant enough, so the small „window frames“ and the „wave“ on the front of the M3 were added - which were very expensive to produce. For the „cheaper“ M2 and all following models they went back to the original Janke design without these embellishments. 

P.S. You may find some information in Günter Osterloh‘s book „50 years Leica M“ (it is in German and English), Heel Verlag 2004.  

From what I understand the IIIg was primarily an 'experiment' to try out the larger viewfinder and projected frame lines that became part of the M's...but that's about it.

[UliWer]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

but just as M2 was before M3

The main feature of the M2, the viewfinder with frames for 35mm was a complete new design which came after the M3-viewfinder. 

Edited September 30, 2024 by UliWer

[pippy]

35 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

......just as M2 was before M3......

Erm, no, Al; the M2 came out three years after the M3 (1957 as opposed to 1954)...

A great many years ago I read (from a 'reputable' source!) that the number '3' was chosen for the first M variant as, like the Leica III over the Leica II, it was given all the bells'n'whistles. A later and slightly simplified version - should one be produced - could then be the 'M2' (mirroring the slightly reduced spec of the Leica II) and an even more basic model could become the M1 (i.e. a bit like the Leica 1 Standard).

The M3 - M2 - M1 cameras so named do, indeed, follow this 'Top, Mid, Lower' ethos even down to the M1 - like the Leica 1 Standard - having no rangefinder hardware installed.

I wish I could remember my source-book......

Philip.

Edited September 30, 2024 by pippy

[Anbaric]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I wonder what Barnack would have thought of the M3? The received wisdom is that he was very strict about the size of the Leica, with the original model as the benchmark - the rangefinder housing in the Leica II/III was not allowed to extend above the level of the film transport knobs. Would he have been won over by the significant technical improvements of the M series, or sent the team back to the drawing board? Were any of the prototypes built while Barnack was still around significantly larger than the Leica III? Even the IIIg, when it appeared after the M3, was bigger than any previous LTM model, so it seems slightly strange to call it a 'Barnack' camera.

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

I meant design wise as UliWer said in post #4.

Ooops!

Apologies, Al, for the misunderstanding! It's been a long, hard day shooting on location - which is hardly de rigeur for me - and, as a consequence, my brain is somewhat frazzled.......😸......

Philip.

Edited September 30, 2024 by pippy

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

The bayonet mount "M" designations M1, M2, M3, are similar to the screw mount designations I, II, III.

A Leica III has high speeds, rangefinder, viewfinder, slow speeds.

A Leica M3 (chronologically the first "M" mount camera.) has high speeds. combined range/viewfinder, slow speeds.

A Leica II has high speeds, range finder, viewfinder.

A Leica M2 (Chronologically the second "M" mount camera.) has high speeds, combined range/viewfinder with a little less than M3 accuracy, slow speeds. Film count wheel & original rewind button not as convenient or as easy as M3 versions.

A Leica I has high speeds. Except for the Ig which has both high speeds & low speeds.

A Leica M1 (Chronologically the third "M" mount camera.) is an M2 without a rangefinder, and only has a single fixed, not changeable, combination 35mm & 50mm frame line set in the viewfinder, which moves as per M3 & M2. 

There is no IIII, or later, Roman Numeral series camera, except in prototypes.

The Leica M4 adds an additional frame line so that it can preview 4 lenses instead of the previous 3 on the M3 & the M2. Has a speed loading "tulip" and automatically resets the M3 style frame counter to -2, has an angled faster rewinding crank, takes standard PC (Prontor/Compur) flash connections.

The Leica M5 adds to what an M4 has: A behind the lens semi-spot meter with angle of coverage visible in the range/viewfinder window, shutter speed in use visible in the range/viewfinder window, shutter speed dial overhanging the front of the camera allows viewing the shutter speed in the range/viewfinder window while setting shutter speed, hot shoe.

And so on.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 1, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[StS]

I wouldn't put too much effort into it, consistency was never the strong point of Leica's product naming

(... M9, M240, M10,...)

Stefan

[NZDavid]

From The Leica's First 50 Years, by Bob Schwalberg, November 1975  (reprinted in The Best of Popular Photography):

"Barnack's last camera was the Leica IV, a supersecret project that occupied his final years. An accompanying photograph shows the only existing prototype, which was built and rebuilt in 1934 and 1935. Note the long-base combined range-viewfinder system which provided a modified  Albada-type frame with interchangeable parallax-compensated finder inserts for the principal Leica focal lengths, from 35- to 135-mm.

"This was, of course, a first step toward the redoubtable M-series Leicas brought to being by two of "Barnack's boys," Willi Stein and Hugo Wehrenpfennig. Willi Stein invented the non-spinning speed dial of the Leica IV, which didn't appear until the Leica M3, of 1954. Herr Stein, who was Barnack's successor, retired after completing his last camera design, the Leica CL."

Edit: I wonder if this should be in the historical forum? Anyone know more about the Leica IV?

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 1, 2024 by NZDavid

[250swb]

I don't think an M4 is called an M4 because of the four framelines, it's because after the M3 was released and named to celebrate three framelines Leica realised the naming structure wasn't going to work on a strict progression with subsequent models. So they fudged the M1 and M2 into the world to fill the gap that was created and any further coincidence regarding the number of framelines was just that, a coincidence. Hence the M4-P isn't called the M4-6 nor an M6 because it carried on from the M4 and not the M5. And by this the naming structure had once again gone off track and the M6 becomes another rationalising moment in the naming structure and not because it had six framelines. Leica again fell into the M3 trap of trying to describe the camera via an attribute with the M240, and then found far more cameras could be designed with a 24mp sensor than they thought, so reverted back to the 'M' prefix for sequential numbering.

Edited October 1, 2024 by 250swb

[willeica]

45 minutes ago, NZDavid said:

From The Leica's First 50 Years, by Bob Schwalberg, November 1975  (reprinted in The Best of Popular Photography):

"Barnack's last camera was the Leica IV, a supersecret project that occupied his final years. An accompanying photograph shows the only existing prototype, which was built and rebuilt in 1934 and 1935. Note the long-base combined range-viewfinder system which provided a modified  Albada-type frame with interchangeable parallax-compensated finder inserts for the principal Leica focal lengths, from 35- to 135-mm.

"This was, of course, a first step toward the redoubtable M-series Leicas brought to being by two of "Barnack's boys," Willi Stein and Hugo Wehrenpfennig. Willi Stein invented the non-spinning speed dial of the Leica IV, which didn't appear until the Leica M3, of 1954. Herr Stein, who was Barnack's successor, retired after completing his last camera design, the Leica CL."

Edit: I wonder if this should be in the historical forum? Anyone know more about the Leica IV?

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I have material from Lars Netopil on the IV. As I am travelling in France I cannot share it now, but will do so when I .arrive home later in the week. 
 

As for looking for a name to attribute as head designer for the M series, this was a team effort (the names quoted above seem to be correct) as were most Leitz/Leica designs even in Barnack’s time. After the initial design he functioned more as an MD than anything else. 
 

There are various prototypes for the M where different features were tested e.g, knob wind v lever wind. The flip door goes back to a LTM prototype from 1934, which will be auctioned at the end of next week - see my post of a link to an article about Wetzlar Camera Auction No 6.

William 

[UliWer]

vor einer Stunde schrieb NZDavid:

This was, of course, a first step toward the redoubtable M-series

One can debate whether the IV prototype was a first step towards the M or a step aside of the Barnack design.

One may look at the main features of the M which are: integration of all functional elements into the body, no protruding elements on the top, integration of rangefinder into the viewfinder, frames for different focal lengthes in the viewfinder with parallax correction, bayonet mount with larger diameter.

The IV prototype had non of these main features. To design the M they had to start again and did so.   

[Jerry Attrik]

I ask what I thought was a simple question and it transpires that it was far from a simple answer!  The result of, at least, 20 years of thinking, ideas, study groups and small committees.  There is an old caveat which states that a committee set  to describe the construction of a horse (animal) the result would look like a Bactrian Camel.  Instead, the M3 is one of the best loved and best, depending on personal taste, that was available and still is.  If anyone want a "WOW" factor this is surely IT!!

Thank you all very much for your replies and discussions  My octogenarian brain is going around in its centrifuge!!!

D.Lox 😂

[pedaes]

7 hours ago, UliWer said:

7 hours ago, UliWer said:

The IV prototype had non of these main features.

 

But it did have single non-rotating shutter speed dial,swing open back, and life size brightline viewfinder, three features that were not commercially introduced until M3.

Leica first started experimenting with a bayonet mount in 1930's (Lars Netopil "Prototype Leica")

Evolution toward the M series cameras..

[NZDavid]

11 hours ago, UliWer said:

One can debate whether the IV prototype was a first step towards the M or a step aside of the Barnack design.

One may look at the main features of the M which are: integration of all functional elements into the body, no protruding elements on the top, integration of rangefinder into the viewfinder, frames for different focal lengthes in the viewfinder with parallax correction, bayonet mount with larger diameter.

The IV prototype had non of these main features. To design the M they had to start again and did so.   

I agree; especially about the M3 unibody which is the main departure from the original Barnack cameras. But it looks like the IV prototype has a combined range/viewfinder? Or not?

[Michael Geschlecht]

21 hours ago, StS said:

I wouldn't put too much effort into it, consistency was never the strong point of Leica's product naming

(... M9, M240, M10,...)

Stefan

Hello Stefan,

As far as the public lettering & public numbering numbering of cameras Leitz/Leica have been reasonably consistent.

M4-2 that followed the M5 is a modified M4.

M4-P is an M4-2 with additional frames, etc.

M6 is more or less of an M5 in an M4 sized body.

M7 is an M6 with an electronically controlled shutter.

MP is a pause in the numbering of M film camera bodies

M8 is a digital camera with a smaller than 24mm X 36mm sensor.

M9 is a digital camera with a 24mm X 36mm sensor.

M is the camera which was supposed to end the numbering of subsequent M cameras.

For various reasons, possibly also including discussions on this Forum, the internal factory product number 240 was added to what was supposed to have been a stand alone M. 

Creating the camera designation M240.

After the M/M240 the 3 digit numbers & sometimes letters, added to M cameras are added internal factory product numbers, etc. used to designate which variety of a certain model a certain camera is.

After M/M240 came M10, etc.

Then came M11, etc.

Perhaps there might be an M12, etc. somewhere in the future.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 2, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[mujk]

12 hours ago, NZDavid said:

I agree; especially about the M3 unibody which is the main departure from the original Barnack cameras. But it looks like the IV prototype has a combined range/viewfinder? Or not?

Yes. According to the 50 Jahres Leica M/50 Years Leica M book by Günter Osterloh the 1936 Leica IV prototype had a combined range/viewfinder. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pippy]

15 hours ago, NZDavid said:

......it looks like the IV prototype has a combined range/viewfinder? Or not?......

 

2 hours ago, mujk said:

Yes. According to the 50 Jahres Leica M/50 Years Leica M book by Günter Osterloh the 1936 Leica IV prototype had a combined range/viewfinder. 

I'm sure William will add more regarding the Leica IV when he has the opportunity but in the meantime here are two further pictures showing the camera. These plates are taken from Rogliatti's well-known book but, from what picture-credits there are mentioned in the volume, I believe the originals were provided  by Ernst Leitz GMBH.

It would be interesting to know whether the viewfinder design was such that removeable(?) viewers were intended to be used for lenses of different focal-lengths. Also noteworthy is the positioning of the rewind knob! I'd also like to know more about the shutter-release button...

Incidentally the 5cm f1.5 Xenon dates to 1935.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

A queer fish, to be sure, and not terribly attractive (😸) but showing signs of some of the thought processes going on at the factory in the route towards the creation of the M.

Philip.

Edited October 2, 2024 by pippy