Super Angulon M 21mm f4 or Super Angulon M 21mm f3.4

[luisrq]

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Super Angulon 21mm M

Edited September 12, 2024 by luisrq

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[pippy]

Both lenses exist.

Do you have a question for which you would like an answer?

Philip.

[a.noctilux]

Our Wiki is full of infos

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Super-Angulon_f%3D_2.1_cm_1:4

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https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/21mm_f3.4_Super-Angulon

[pippy]

This (rather entertaining) over-view from the 'unique' Mr. Rockwell makes a few very pertinent observations;

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/21mm-f4.htm

To highlight just one part of the post;

"This 21mm f/4 is better than the newer 21mm f3.4 because this f/4 lens has a 9-bladed diaphragm instead of the hokey 4-bladed one in the f/3.4, and this f/4 takes standard E39 filters and A42 accessories. The f/3.4 takes 48mm or series VII filters.

 So: What Would You Like To Ask / Know?

P.

Edited September 12, 2024 by pippy

[lct]

11 hours ago, pippy said:

This (rather entertaining) over-view from the 'unique' Mr. Rockwell makes a few very pertinent observations;

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/21mm-f4.htm

To highlight just one part of the post;

"This 21mm f/4 is better than the newer 21mm f3.4 because this f/4 lens has a 9-bladed diaphragm instead of the hokey 4-bladed one in the f/3.4, and this f/4 takes standard E39 filters and A42 accessories. The f/3.4 takes 48mm or series VII filters.

 So: What Would You Like To Ask / Know?

P.

Another question if you don't mind. How about color shifts at edges and corners with digital. Does the f/4 produce more or less of them than the f/3.4, if any?

[a.noctilux]

These SA 21mm lenses are good for film ( well sort of when we don't have choice ) even if strong vignetting.

On sensor very strong smear same from the two types 3.4/4 .

I use them sparingly with Monochrom sensors.

Good (best) geometric subjects lenses, straight lines at border stay straight while some other WA give ondulated or in/out "lines".

[lct]

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1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

On sensor very strong smear same from the two types 3.4/4 .

Depends on the sensor. 21/3.4 on M11 here. I have no experience with the S-A 21/4 though.

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[a.noctilux]

On M11, no smear, good then.

...

I don't have/need M11 so this is good news.

I see some strong vignetting at corners.

That is normal.

I think the same behavior with f/4 type.

Thanks for the pix LCT.

 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Another question if you don't mind. How about color shifts at edges and corners with digital. Does the f/4 produce more or less of them than the f/3.4, if any?

I couldn't comment on the difference(s) between the f4.0 and the f3.4 as I have no personal experience of using the newer lens.

17 minutes ago, lct said:

Depends on the sensor. 21/3.4 on M11 here. I have no experience with the S-A 21/4 though.

The f3.4 / M11 combination certainly seems to work better than the f4.0 with the M240-series of colour digi-bodies. Whether that is down to the lens design or the microlenses in front of the sensor would be interesting to know. Unfortunately the only way to try this out would be if someone here has access to an example of both lenses.

In addition it would be interesting if you could tell us whether you had selected any particular lens-profile for your lens.

For what it is worth here is an indication of how pronounced is the colour-fringing with the M-D Typ-262. Understandably - as there is no menu available - there is no lens-profile selection therefore no in-camera wizardry. Photograph is SOOC / un-corrected;

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As has been discussed fairly recently in another thread I usually use the 21mm with the Monochrom. With that camera I have been able to play about with different lens-profiles and the amount of in-camera correction-magic can be significant but even with the colour-body the images can work very well when converted to B'n'W. Here is the same DNG file as shown above rendered in monochrome;

Philip.

[lct]

Another 21/3.4 snap on M11 below. I used to do comparos with the M240 in the past but i can't seem to retrieve the posts.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-2134/i-HGqQpck/0/LrFXvSJkDpntKv4n3dvg4JVDNHnvpxWr6tZLWDg6K/X4/M1002692_matrix-X4.jpg

[lct]

Just retrieved the pics i was referring to.
S-A 21/3.4 on M240:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-2134/i-66CG5w6/1/KSTKMd2GKZSKVxVZCs9NCp5nvzJrMMwqXCghg9MwZ/X4/M2401767_si-X4.jpg
S-A 21/3.4 on M11:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-2134/i-7HHRPwp/0/Lnfp577zbFFmfsStvZKDx9wmLMKWmkWZ4qGmrnLGN/X4/M1002785_si-X4.jpg

[lct]

29 minutes ago, pippy said:

The f3.4 / M11 combination certainly seems to work better than the f4.0 with the M240-series of colour digi-bodies. Whether that is down to the lens design or the microlenses in front of the sensor would be interesting to know.

The culprit seems to be the BSI sensor of the M11 as i got similar results with that of my Sony a7r2mod with the same lens. See below.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Sony-A7r2-Leica-2134-pre-asph/i-89hqtTB/1/MFhxW2cSq4KcPMct6C2JnhQ2P4fxdCPj3rxhP86gj/X4/DSC00337_si-X4.jpg

[henning]

Hi Lluis,

How's your part of Barcelona doing? I would maybe like to come again and visit, but I would indeed be adding to the tourist numbers. Keep well and keep shooting!

I don't have either Super Angolan anymore, but I had an f/4 for a while at the end of the 60's in screw mount, and then got an f/3.4 in about 1973. As I remember the differences wasn't gigantic, but there definitely was a noticeable different, and that was on PanF or Kodachrome II. When I was shooting Tri-X or HS Ektachrome I didn't care as much about smaller differences in lens performance, so both were good. They were at their time about as good as 21mm lenses got. Nikon, Zeiss and Canon also had decent lenses, but the Schneider Super Angolans were the gold standard.

I think right now if I wanted a decent 21mm lens for M mount and I didn't need the absolute best one, I'd get the 21/3.5 Color Skopar from Voigtlander. It's better on digital cameras than either Super Angulon and probably just as good as the 21/3.4 Super Angulon on film. The best 21 right now is still the current Super Elmar.

Edited September 14, 2024 by henning

[luisrq]

Thank you, your experience with these was very interseting for me. When I was shhoting with the R System I loved the 21/4 Super Angulon, later when I went to Leica M I bought the Elmarit 21/2,8, I have never enjoyed very much this lens, I own also a Elmarit 24/2,8 Asph, this one I like very much, but it is not like my old R Super Angulon.I think I will do some change one day, on the other hand I generally love the fingerprint of the  old lenses.

Cheers

[lct]

On the M11, the S-A 21/4 has similar character and performance as the S-A 21/3.4. No "italian flag" syndrome, except for some red and/or magenta shifts on corners at full aperture. Much less so than with the M240 though. Couple of snaps with the S-A 21/4 below. All full frame jpegs with vignetting correction in post. See details on exif data.

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Edited September 11 by lct

[Jamison]

I ran a test on the Super-Angulon f3.4 21mm M compared to the f4 way back in 80's.  One of the lens designers in Wetzlar mentioned that the older 3.4 was a more classic style solution with back lenses protruding into the camera body to allow the best edge to edge sharpness for wide open.  He said that the f4 was a retrofocus solution redesign to fix the issue of the back lenses going so far back that the M5 had to have it's pop-up light sensor forced to not work on the 21mm 3.4 so that it would not be damaged and possibly damage the back elements.  The lens mount needed an repair adjustment to block the M5 light sensor.  It's hard to tell if this has been done.  Have it checked by an expert, before even trying to put it on an M5.  The 21mm M f 4 was also to help look forward to newer light metering that would be read from a white dot reflection on the focal shutter that was coming up in M camera design.

The problem he said with retrofocus was that the edge sharpnesss suffered, particlarly at wide open.  So, with my Ilford ASA 50, Panf B&W tests shots of NYC Wall street, late afteroon, I shot with both lenses from a tripod at wide open and I did see a slight softening of the edge sharpness on the retrofocus f4.  I think I recall that it improved with stopping down just to 5.6.  Overall, I preferred the original f3.4 for contrast and clarity compared to the f4.

Of course, in the light of digital photography and color shift issues with edge slanted angle light rays causing color banding, it would seem that both the f 3.4 and f4 are not really optimal compared to the new designs which I am assuming, gets the light rays to arrive at right angles instead of slanted.  I have not tested the newer 21mm lense and have no experience shooting with them.

I lost my f 3.4 21mm in a car theft, which makes me never want to leave any camera in a car!  If I was offered a f 3.4 or a f 4 to use on my film M5, I would take the older f 3.4 making sure the lens mount turned off the M5 light meter, before even mounting the lens, at all.  For digital photgraphy, I would try to opt for the newer 21mm designs. Today, I use the old 28mm M Elmarit, which seems to cover the need for the 21mm and works nicely with the M5 where the full viewport is really close to the 28mm view.

If I can dig up the negs for the test from the 80's I will try to post the examples here.

I was working out of Rockleigh, NJ for Leica, at the time of the test.  I had previously worked at the head offce in Wetzlar. It was very nice being able to talk to designers and repair tech people, whenever I had a question.  They all just loved to talk about everything to do with design and optics.

 

Edited September 12 by Jamison

[lct]

My LTM version of the S-A 21/4 (11002) is earlier than the 21/3.4 (11103) and the M variant of the same 21/4 (11102) is earlier too AFAIK. Both protrude the same way into the body. FWIW.