Leica M11-D: The camera without a display enters the next round

[Viv]

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1 hour ago, evikne said:

White balance requires precise fine tuning. It's impossible to do this on location anyway, so it's better to leave it to something you do in post.

I disagree. It's quite possible to fine-tune WB on location.

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Viv:

to fine-tune WB on location

How do you proceed? Do you set the Kelvin directly by taking a few test shots and then transfer to iPad (or equivalent) and chosse the Kelvin value that suits best?

My experience inside is quite a difficult one. Often fromm room to roo you have fully different lighting colour and a preset Kelvin value would not fit it all. My consequence is then to nirmally use AWB. 

. . . but I am aware that this discussion has little to do with the new D model. I am sorry to fuel this theme again. We should probably have a separate thread.

 

[evikne]

3 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

but I am aware that this discussion has little to do with the new D model. I am sorry to fuel this theme again. We should probably have a separate thread.

There are very strong feelings associated with white balance, almost like religion. Maybe the forum should forbid discussions around it. 😄

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb evikne:

There are very strong feelings associated with white balance, almost like religion. Maybe the forum should forbid discussions around it. 😄

I would even go further: Stop all discussions as there are anyway always different views. And these views are the same before and after the discussion.

We would save a lot of time and could go to take photographs instead 🤒

[pgk]

3 hours ago, M11 for me said:

Should you not rather set a Kelvin-value rather than "daylight" (or whatever) which is then no precise value either.

For consistency the important thing is to shoot everything the same. For sunny outdoors I find daylight setting quite usable. As long as the same settings are applied in post, colour will be consistent.

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb pgk:

For consistency the important thing is to shoot everything the same. For sunny outdoors I find daylight setting quite usable. As long as the same settings are applied in post, colour will be consistent.

Thank you. I really have to put more attention into that in the coming days and learn about the impact in Lightroom.

[jonoslack]

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White balance seems to be like religion . . or Trump

there is no such thing as a 'correct' white balance in mixed lighting (ie anything which has direct light and shade)

So that using a grey card would need to be done with every shot as the balance of shade and light changes. (and still it would only represent one area of an image)

AWB does a grand job of sorting this out, but it's only an average over the different regions of the image (which will have different white balance values). The human eye/brain is brilliant at this, cameras less so. 

If you use AWB in mixed lighting then the white balance will change from shot to shot, and so will the colour. 

I prefer to see consistent colour throughout a shoot (of course I shoot DNG and can change it in post), and the way to do this is to shoot with a fixed white balance - and keep it the same for the whole shoot

 

 

[M Street Photographer]

I am currently testing the following application on my M 10 R and Q3: during the day WB 5400 Kelvin, in the evening 7200. I want consistency in my photos from a certain time period. And I want to see the color mood as it was and not distorted by an automatic WB. Then I always photograph with exposure compensation - 0.3 and middle -weighted metering. The ISO at day 200 to 400 and at night 3200. And to take it to the extreme, I always photograph with the lens as open as possible, with very few exceptions.

The photos therefore correspond to my taste and I get the colors as I remember them at the time the photo was taken.

And that is also the route I would take with an M11 or M11 D.

Edited September 15, 2024 by M Street Photographer

[algrove]

Back to the M11D, I would try one WB setting other than Auto. Then next try as Fred suggested use Auto and change the WB as desired on import. Then compare your results and pick which you like the best, if there is a difference. 

My main change for the M11D would be IN=SD. L-DNG only. I also might use highlight weighted metering as I often do with other M11 variants.

It will be exciting to use a D for the first time. I seldom chimp so it might be easier than one would think. I would probably use it like I use my M6. Perhaps the sensor metering is more accurate than the M6 meter.

Memorizing the sequence of button pushes will be the hardest part of owning an M11D. I guess one should take a Quick Start Guide with them while first shooting with the M11D-just in case. Then again once I set my wanted settings, generally why change them. Just go use it with glee. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by algrove

[M11 for me]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

If you use AWB in mixed lighting then

When you say that do you think of inside shooting with windows (daylight) plus artificial light sources (of course different ones in larger function halls) plus a beamer beaming its light onto a large canvas etc. ?

Its right that I get then reddish or greenish or bluish images all mixed up and all depending where I stand in that room. In those instances I tend to try to set a specific Celvin value. But will try other white balance settings next time . . .

Two weeks ago I was at a big event with terrible mixed light sources including day light. I decided to go with AWB with all the effects that I described above. And indeed it was quite a job to adjust in Lightroom classic in post. 

[P_Wijk]

To achieve a truly analog experience, I strongly recommend adding an "M-A mode" to the Leica Photos app. This would elevate the analog feel by turning off the light meter and forcing shutter to "close-open-close" shutter cycle, capturing the essence of mechanical film photography.

Furthermore, if Leica integrates a light meter into the app using the smartphone's camera rather than the internal camera meter, it would bring the Leica ecosystem even closer together. I currently use the "LUX" app on my iPhone when shooting film with my M2, M3, and when I owned an M-A, and in challenging lighting situations, the external app often provides more accurate exposure than the built-in meter of the MP.

Ideally, this light meter should be accessible in the app without needing to connect to the camera, since the connection isn’t always instantaneous. Alternatively, the light meter could start independently, with the app connecting to the camera in the background under the proposed "M-A mode."

P.S. I sold my M11 due to issues with the shutter experience, but I believe an "M-A mode" on the M11-D would check all my boxes and be more in line with pre-M5/M6/M7/MP shooters.Happy shooting from an MP, M2, and M10 Safari Shooter.

Cheers,

Per

[M Street Photographer]

There is also another very simple solution for exposure metering for those who want to have something as close to analog as possible.There is a third-party light meter that attaches to the hot shoe; it is very small and extremely reliable.

https://khrome.de/products/keks-km02-belichtungsmesser-fuer-blitzschuh-black?srsltid=AfmBOoqz3gWxugWiTs-i1EIMVMWfaI09svOsdKXy5HOhIVDmHit1a_iE

I think it's good that various settings can be made via an app. However, Leica should be careful not to overload this app and fill it with endless features. In my opinion, this means that we constantly have our mobile phone in our hand in order to activate or deactivate other functions. This contradicts my understanding of the concept of an M11 D.

I would rather argue that the app's settings should also be available directly via the Visoflex, so that you no longer have to pick up your phone. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by M Street Photographer

[Smudgerer]

14 hours ago, jonoslack said:

White balance seems to be like religion . . or Trump

there is no such thing as a 'correct' white balance in mixed lighting (ie anything which has direct light and shade)

So that using a grey card would need to be done with every shot as the balance of shade and light changes. (and still it would only represent one area of an image)

AWB does a grand job of sorting this out, but it's only an average over the different regions of the image (which will have different white balance values). The human eye/brain is brilliant at this, cameras less so. 

If you use AWB in mixed lighting then the white balance will change from shot to shot, and so will the colour. 

I prefer to see consistent colour throughout a shoot (of course I shoot DNG and can change it in post), and the way to do this is to shoot with a fixed white balance - and keep it the same for the whole shoot

 

 

In my recently "previous life" in cinematography I always tried to shoot a grey card and a Macbeth card whenever we would change a scene or a position/lighting/camera angle so that the timer-colourist in film-transfer would be able to have a consistent reference scene to scene, even as a reference too when we were dealing with multiple  actor's different skin tones in one shot.............Oh yes, I'm primarily talking film here but the same approach pays off when shooting cinema-digital too..............It's too much of course the try to do the same all the time when shooting stills but if in doubt a reference shot of a small grey card now and again will always help you set a norm' in post.............As primarily a B&W / monochrome shooter myself though of course I don't bother at all with any of that stuff now, shoot and be damned

[newtoleica]

21 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

As primarily a B&W / monochrome shooter myself though of course I don't bother at all with any of that stuff now, shoot and be damned

Agree... the best 'solution' to AWB is a Leica Monochrom.... LOL.

[Smudgerer]

3 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Agree... the best 'solution' to AWB is a Leica Monochrom.... LOL.

Or a D Monochrom, wouldn't that be grand!

[newtoleica]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Or a D Monochrom, wouldn't that be grand!

My fantasy would be a ‘enhanced’ a la carte programme. Take your pick of 1. Sensor (colour/mono) 2. Body type (D, P, plain), 3. metering (sensor / off curtain), VF magnification (or EVF), finish and branding options. Wouldnt THAT be grand…. 😁🤣

[charlesphoto99]

8 hours ago, M11 for me said:

When you say that do you think of inside shooting with windows (daylight) plus artificial light sources (of course different ones in larger function halls) plus a beamer beaming its light onto a large canvas etc. ?

Its right that I get then reddish or greenish or bluish images all mixed up and all depending where I stand in that room. In those instances I tend to try to set a specific Celvin value. But will try other white balance settings next time . . .

Two weeks ago I was at a big event with terrible mixed light sources including day light. I decided to go with AWB with all the effects that I described above. And indeed it was quite a job to adjust in Lightroom classic in post. 

Shooting color in mixed lighting will always be a compromise, at least until AI comes along to take care of it (in camera or in Lightroom). Many photographers use mixed lighting to strong effect, esp in the days of shooting slides (for example a dusk scene of a building with green fluorescents lighting the porch or windows). But trying to get to 'reality' can be a mixed bag. That's what b&w conversion is for. 

[algrove]

I just realized that one cannot format either the SD card nor internal memory in camera or via the Foto app. I always format my memory cards in camera. 

So until Leica corrects this issue what do I do? Format my Sd cards in my M11 and then transfer the card over to my M11D?

This is a big oversight and software engineers should have picked up on this and beta testers too.

[newtoleica]

5 minutes ago, algrove said:

I just realized that one cannot format either the SD card nor internal memory in camera or via the Foto app. I always format my memory cards in camera. 

So until Leica corrects this issue what do I do? Format my Sd cards in my M11 and then transfer the card over to my M11D?

This is a big oversight and software engineers should have picked up on this and beta testers too.

This has always been the case with D versions. Leica ask that cards are formatted on a computer, I forget the name of the tool, but it seems to work.

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[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb algrove:

I just realized that one cannot format either the SD card nor internal memory in camera or via the Foto app. I always format my memory cards in camera. 

So until Leica corrects this issue what do I do? Format my Sd cards in my M11 and then transfer the card over to my M11D?

This is a big oversight and software engineers should have picked up on this and beta testers too.

Look here: