M11M - Validate my thinking

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, Knightspirit said:

I haven't tried a Monochrome, but I will say that if it were me - I would go with the regular M11 all the way. The BW images coming out if it are superb - and using today's technology via Lightroom and Photoshop - you get unlimited filters (ie all of the colors - red, green, yellow etc) right in the software. You will have a lot more control over the final image using a color file - as counterintuitive as that sounds.

 

The trade-off for me is the shooting experience/mindset that a monochromatic sensor provides, similar to shooting with B&W film. Not being tempted by, or distracted by, potential color pics has its own rewards, irrespective of image quality. I didn’t feel that way until I actually owned a Monochrom. I never carry a color-based camera when using it.

Jeff

[Smudgerer]

38 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The trade-off for me is the shooting experience/mindset that a monochromatic sensor provides, similar to shooting with B&W film. Not being tempted by, or distracted by, potential color pics has its own rewards, irrespective of image quality. I didn’t feel that way until I actually owned a Monochrom. I never carry a color-based camera when using it.

Jeff

I have for some years now mirrored your way of working your imagining, your approach to it all, forgoing the darkroom side and just finding the best path to take in ending up with a good print in hand of an image thought to be worth the effort and time. I guess I about 85% agree with you that the results from digital/inkjet printing can be damn nigh close enough to a "wet print" process, and I too finish my work now in the same way to a choice of Epson printers, a choice of inksets and final print sizes and from someone like you came who up through decades of wet darkroom work I have been more than content with the new way of printing's output...........BUT there's still a part of me that does miss the safelight Zen of darkroom printing, for a number of reasons I'll not go back to it but it is still an itch that sporadically needs to be scratched. Last year I had a show of work and commissioned a printer to make a set of A2 "wet" prints for me, side by side with the inkjet prints I had already produced yes there was a difference, yes I did prefer the traditional prints, not enough to make me want to expand my darkroom to create a "dry side" printing line though...........Like you I find the M10's enough of a camera, like you I do not hanker after the next generation, what the M10P/R/M's produce for me is more than good enough and after more than a few decades in this game I am very picky regarding my final image's output. Leica M's are getting way too overcomplicated in my view and creating their own unecessary problems, with people seemingly demanding more and more of a thoroughbred "horse" when really a pony would do the job just as well, but that's another discussion beaten to death elswhere here.

Back sort of on topic I find that these past couple of years I am returning to imaging on film, after selling a couple I have more film M's than digital ones now and I am content with that re-awakening. I shoot bulk loaded cassttes of around 25 exposures a roll preferring the lesser load, I shoot slowly in the main a 24 exp' roll can sit in a camera for a few weeks even when the camera has been taken out often. The film is processed in the home darkroom, I used to scan the complete rolls with either a Reflecta scanner or a digital camera set-up but nowadays I have reverted to an earlier way of working, I "contact print" each roll with a digital camera / copy-stand/ light pad set-up, print that and pick the individual frames I want then scan them with either a Nikon or Plustek scanner, port them to LRC and print to the choice of Epson/Inkset......So far this is a comfortable way of working for me.

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

 I guess I about 85% agree with you that the results from digital/inkjet printing can be damn nigh close enough to a "wet print" process,

I never said that. They are different, and each (potentially) worthy in its own right. But nothing specifically matches an elegantly executed (and displayed) silver print… one that “sings”… of an exceptional picture.  But that is rare. That’s why I’ve collected vintage silver (and some platinum) prints for almost 40 years.

Jeff

 

Jeff

[Smudgerer]

23 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I never said that. They are different, and each (potentially) worthy in its own right. But nothing specifically matches an elegantly executed (and displayed) silver print… one that “sings”… of an exceptional picture.  But that is rare. That’s why I’ve collected vintage silver (and some platinum) prints for almost 40 years.

Jeff

Sorry Jeff, I didn't mean to miss-quote you, but yes they are different and either process to print has it's own attributes in how they can display images, the images themselves too can influence on which print medium they'd look the best........but there again assuming each process is done with skill and care everything is still subjective and no one way is the "right / best" way to go...............Nice to know too that you have a collection of silver and platinum prints going back those number of years, sadly my similar collection of prints disappeared in a studio fire some years ago.

Edited August 23, 2024 by Smudgerer

[Jeff S]

29 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

 sadly my similar collection of prints disappeared in a studio fire some years ago.

Hope you were well insured. I include photo print and photo book collection under same policy.

Jeff

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, Knightspirit said:

haven't tried a Monochrome

This 😉

[Smudgerer]

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Hope you were well insured. I include photo print and photo book collection under same policy.

Jeff

Yes, it was quite a few years back now and  the insurance coverage was good at that time. Gear is replaceable, even up-gradeable with good insurance, but pieces like collections of prints and personal "stuff" not so much, when it's gone it's gone you can't "buy it back"...........

Edited August 23, 2024 by Smudgerer
spelling

[BWColor]

I retired a few years ago.  I was so busy with moving and relocating that it was. only in the last half year that I started to ask myself, “now what?”  I started almost sixty years ago with film and a 10’x10’ darkroom.  Decades later I adopted a hybrid workflow.  Post retirement I wanted something to get me out of the house, so I looked to revitalize my interest in photography.  I sold half of my camera equipment and purchased the M11M and the Voigtlander 35 & 50 mm APO lenses and their 75mm f/1.9 and I left for South Korea with a 21mm f/4.5 and 35mm APO.  Amazing camera which was so much fun to use.  To my surprise, I used the 21 mm  with a red filter quite a bit.  My 35 mm with yellow filter rounded out my options.   I was able to shoot everything everywhere at any time .. day or night.  I used an auxiliary portable battery to recharge the camera via the USB C port. I was able to use the Leica phone app to download images and upload them to Flickr, so that my wife could see what happened during the day. The monochrome is absolutely a perfect camera. The only thing I could ask for is a greater degree of water sealing.  Regarding the extra resolution versus the M10M.. I was pretty impressed with the number of images that I decided to print as panoramic images and how much cropping I was able to do. Definitely no need to take a 50 mm when I can crop the 35 mm images.  The APO lens on this sensor is a magic combination. i’m now home and produced a couple of albums from my trip and am planning my next trip. This camera definitely has me wanting to get out and shoot. Now, I have to sell the other half of my equipment to pay for my X2D and three lenses. i’m a big fan of the M11M . It is absolutely amazing and desreves a top pigment printer.  I’m looking at the larger Canon printers that were recently introduced.

Edited August 23, 2024 by BWColor
Typo

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, BWColor said:

 I’m looking at the larger Canon printers that were recently introduced.

If you haven’t already, you might consider ink usage and print frequency required with the Canon Pro line, particularly the large format (24/44/60 inch) models. Canon mandates automatic maintenance cleanings of their printers (to avoid residue build-up from their hot firing heads), so ink WILL get used, either during mandated cleaning cycles or during actual printing, so one should print frequently to avoid wasting inks.  That’s a lot of big prints.  Very fine machines, but geared toward higher production environments.

Jeff

[BWColor]

Jeff:

Same with my current Pro-1000.  You pretty much need to print daily, but you don’t need to print large areas daily.  Anyway, good point and the primary reason I have yet to purchase.

[brickftl]

On 8/22/2024 at 11:15 PM, Knightspirit said:

I haven't tried a Monochrome, but I will say that if it were me - I would go with the regular M11 all the way. The BW images coming out if it are superb - and using today's technology via Lightroom and Photoshop - you get unlimited filters (ie all of the colors - red, green, yellow etc) right in the software. You will have a lot more control over the final image using a color file - as counterintuitive as that sounds.

 

I used to have your mindset. I constantly argued that I could produce b/w images from my M10 equivalent to those from a monochrome cam. That was UNTIL . . . I actually got my hands on and shot with a monochrome cam. If you're shooting at relatively low ISO, then I still tend to agree with you. But from ISO 6400 and up, the "noise" of a monochrome cam is a tight, uniform pattern that looks just like film grain, especially Tri-X that I used to shoot back in the 70's, as opposed to the smeary ugly noise from a color converted image that yes you can clean up in ACR and/or other products like Topaz Photo AI but which afterwards looks sort of plasticy. And yes theres a difference in tonal gradations from dark to light on images from a monochrome cam that you just don't get from color images converted to b/w. Although your opinion is perfectly valid, it's just an opinion not based on fact/experience because as you said you haven't tried a monochrome. 

I would post images shot with my M11M, but one of the forum mods told me I can't do so unless I go through the steps of reducing the image size (even though posting links doesn't actually upload the image to this forum's servers). Instead, here's a link to my page showing images shot with my M11M. Midway down you'll see a picture shot from atop a bridge looking down at multiple railroad tracks. I put that image up, not because it's photo worthy but simply to show what an image shot at ISO 40000 looks like straight from my monochrome cam. I've shot other images at higher ISO, and again they're perfectly clear. No way would high ISO images like that taken with my M10 converted to b/w be that clean.

https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/Leica-M11-Monochrom-images

 

[Knightspirit]

1 hour ago, brickftl said:

I used to have your mindset. I constantly argued that I could produce b/w images from my M10 equivalent to those from a monochrome cam. That was UNTIL . . . I actually got my hands on and shot with a monochrome cam. If you're shooting at relatively low ISO, then I still tend to agree with you. But from ISO 6400 and up, the "noise" of a monochrome cam is a tight, uniform pattern that looks just like film grain, especially Tri-X that I used to shoot back in the 70's, as opposed to the smeary ugly noise from a color converted image that yes you can clean up in ACR and/or other products like Topaz Photo AI but which afterwards looks sort of plasticy. And yes theres a difference in tonal gradations from dark to light on images from a monochrome cam that you just don't get from color images converted to b/w. Although your opinion is perfectly valid, it's just an opinion not based on fact/experience because as you said you haven't tried a monochrome. 

I would post images shot with my M11M, but one of the forum mods told me I can't do so unless I go through the steps of reducing the image size (even though posting links doesn't actually upload the image to this forum's servers). Instead, here's a link to my page showing images shot with my M11M. Midway down you'll see a picture shot from atop a bridge looking down at multiple railroad tracks. I put that image up, not because it's photo worthy but simply to show what an image shot at ISO 40000 looks like straight from my monochrome cam. I've shot other images at higher ISO, and again they're perfectly clear. No way would high ISO images like that taken with my M10 converted to b/w be that clean.

https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/Leica-M11-Monochrom-images

 

No argument here - your images look great! Unbelievable that you can shoot at ISO 40000 and get usable images. There is a definite film like grain even on the color sensor of the M11 - and even at low ISO values sometimes. Sadly - this thread is getting me interested in a Monochrome camera 😳!

[BWColor]

Those are some really nice images.  In fact, a bit inspirational.  I need to start seeing the things around me in a different way.  The railroad tracks are impressive. 

For those who think that converting color images to B&W competes with the M11M, well the operational part of that suggestion is an admission that the poster hadn’t tried a monochrome camera.  My advice is never try one of the Leica Monochrom cameras, because they are absolutely addictive.

[brickftl]

Just now, Knightspirit said:

No argument here - your images look great! Unbelievable that you can shoot at ISO 40000 and get usable images. There is a definite film like grain even on the color sensor of the M11 - and even at low ISO values sometimes. Sadly - this thread is getting me interested in a Monochrome camera 😳!

My first M camera I bought in February, the M10. Then 2 months ago I got a hair up my bum that instead of using that perfectly wonderful camera I needed to get the M11-P which I did - mint used great price off Fred Miranda. Right away I realized it was a mistake - images weren't any better than from my M10, and in certain cases not as good because 60 mps highlighted issues with not having high enough shutter speed - whether for hand holding or shooting moving subjects. Then just because I'm crazy, I decided to scratch an itch that I've had a long time - to play with a monochrome cam. So I bought a mint used M11M. Absolutely fell in love with it to the point that for the time being I'm not interested in shooting color. I'm just so taken with the look of the M11M images that I'm constantly cooking up ideas for photo shoots. I've got one that I want to do but I need to wait for a dark rainy night. Meanwhile I became good friends with the guy from whom I bought the M11M, and it turns out he wanted a M11-P so I sold it to him for exactly what I paid for it (which was also what I paid for the M11M). So now I'm left with 2 cams - the M11M and the M10 which is a perfect color cam for whenever I get the urge to shoot color.

And all that said . . . I think people should buy a monochrome cam if either (1) they ONLY want to shoot b/w and have no desire to ever shoot in color, or (2) they can afford both a color cam and a monochrome cam. Put another way, if someone can only afford one camera and they have an interest in processing both color and b/w images, then they shouldn't get a monochrome.

If based on the above you're someone who should get a monochrome, perhaps rent one (https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica-m11-monochrom) and see what you think about it. If you're like me, then you'll get one for sure. For me it's been a game changer.

[brickftl]

3 minutes ago, BWColor said:

Those are some really nice images.  In fact, a bit inspirational.  I need to start seeing the things around me in a different way.  The railroad tracks are impressive. 

For those who think that converting color images to B&W competes with the M11M, well the operational part of that suggestion is an admission that the poster hadn’t tried a monochrome camera.  My advice is never try one of the Leica Monochrom cameras, because they are absolutely addictive.

yes totally agree. Don't go near one if you can't afford it.

By the way, the M10M is also a fabulous monochrome cam - maybe not quite as fabulous as the M11M, but pretty darn good. Check out that RedDot review that I posted earlier (or if you have time, watch the RedDot review on YouTube of the M11M). They give examples of images shot at ISO 50000 that are absolutely stunning. This camera has opened the door for me to do night shooting even not completely wide open.

Edited August 24, 2024 by brickftl