50mm Elmar

[RichardG]

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I have a Leica 1 with a number in the 61,000 range and looks to have been factory upgraded with a built-in rangefinder unit, it has a 50mm Elmar f3.5 lens but there is no number to be seen in the usual inner lens ring, in fact I can not see a number anywhere. My question is, did Leica produce lens in the early days without numbers on?

Any help would be appreciated, many thanks.

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[nitroplait]

A Leica IA would be one integrated unit. No replaceable lens and one serial number for both.

when converted to a Leica II like yours, the lens was separated from the body and standardized. As there cannot be a lens and body with the same number in Leica logic, only the body retained the original number and the lens is numberless.

I have one just like that.

Edited August 20, 2024 by nitroplait

[willeica]

7 hours ago, nitroplait said:

A Leica IA would be one integrated unit. No replaceable lens and one serial number for both.

when converted to a Leica II like yours, the lens was separated from the body and standardized. As there cannot be a lens and body with the same number in Leica logic, only the body retained the original number and the lens is numberless.

I have one just like that.

The lens would have been converted to M39 (39mm) from a 33 mm mount if the camera were a I Model A or just standardised if the camera had been a I Model C. The original lens was also converted to 7 O'Clock and would be somewhat shorter than the normal lens for a I Model A. I have a number of examples which were shortened. The same lens element was used and that would not carry a serial number on the retaining ring as lenses on the original ModeI As did not have a serial number. This was during a very important period for product development and changes happened very quickly. 

William 

Edited August 21, 2024 by willeica

[RichardG]

Many thanks nitroplait and William, very interesting.

[wlaidlaw]

The 11 o'clock Elmar 50 on my 1931 1C Standard (built as such not a conversion) has no serial number either. My hockey stick 1A with a 50 Elmar, as it is non-detachable would not have a separate number either. My 1932 Hektor 50 does have a number 140871 . 

Wilson

[jerzy]

For completeness- before starting to stamp serial on the front ring, Elmar lenses have been assigned serial number stamped inside, on the barell that holds optical elements, thus visible only when lens was taken apart. Such optics with hidden serial number was used as well for late IA, it is very probable that the lens in question has hidden number.

[willeica]

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1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

The 11 o'clock Elmar 50 on my 1931 1C Standard (built as such not a conversion) has no serial number either. My hockey stick 1A with a 50 Elmar, as it is non-detachable would not have a separate number either. My 1932 Hektor 50 does have a number 140871 . 

Wilson

Two of my I Model As were converted to a I Model C Non Standardised and a Standard respectively. When the conversion was made the lens mount was changed in both cases, but no visible serial number was assigned. It may be that a number (of the camera?) appears inside, as per Jerzy's note above. I also have a converted lens without a camera and with no external number visible. Like the other two, it is noticeably shorter than normal, probably because of the conversion.

William 

Edited August 21, 2024 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

From what I have seen, some of these numbers were hand electro-pencilled rather than stamped. I wonder if this might have been done when a camera was returned to Leica and disassembled, so that they could be assured of re-uniting the correct lens to the correct body. 

Wilson

[willeica]

8 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

From what I have seen, some of these numbers were hand electro-pencilled rather than stamped. I wonder if this might have been done when a camera was returned to Leica and disassembled, so that they could be assured of re-uniting the correct lens to the correct body. 

Wilson

I agree, Wilson. I have another I Model A from 1926 which was converted to to a IIa/f in the 1950s and it does not carry a serial number on 50 Elmar which is a late 1940s mount going to f16.. The original concept in the 1920s was that the 50 lens and the camera were one unit and were regarded as having the same number. All that was blown apart by interchangeable lenses. We also had the other matching numbers (5 and 3 digits) which were added on lens mounts for Non-Standardised I Model Cs. Leica lens serial numbers are a huge topic and I doubt if anyone has really got to the bottom of them, not even Hartmut Thiele who produced a book of lens serial number lists. Last year we were told in the Leica Archive, which contains little information on lens serial numbers, that there may be some additional papers in the Optical Department, but I have not followed up on that.

William 

[jerzy]

Am 21.8.2024 um 17:18 schrieb wlaidlaw:

From what I have seen, some of these numbers were hand electro-pencilled rather than stamped. I wonder if this might have been done when a camera was returned to Leica and disassembled, so that they could be assured of re-uniting the correct lens to the correct body.

I do not know electro-pencil technology but these numbers look like there were stamped. And it was  not the camera number. IA SN 58816 has fix Elmar with hidden number 71973 and IC 65663 has Elmar 85592. Vidom 124 from 2022 has an article about Elmars with hidden serial

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[wlaidlaw]

Jerzy, 

These were not numbers stamped into the ring but looked like they had been almost hand scratched onto the rear part of the barrel. Because you would not want to put much pressure on the barrel by using something like a scribe, an electro-pencil, where the hard metal stylus vibrates at a high frequency, would be a good way to mark the barrels without any or at least minimal pressure. They have been around a long time, having been invented by Thomas Alva Edison in the 19th Century. Effectively they are a pencil which can write a permanent marking on metal. I have a somewhat later one and use them to mark things like bicycles and my mobility scooter. 

Wilson

[RichardG]

All very fascinating, many thanks for your comments.