TL lenses on SL3

[prismstorm]

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Having recently acquired a SL3, I obtained the TL 11-23 to use on it as with the new 60MP sensor 26MP in crop mode is even more than SL2-S's native resolution now. The size and weight savings are huge. Would like to see whether the following are what others experience as well: 

- I know that TL lenses are not claimed to be weather sealed, but after mounting the lens, there is a noticeable gap of silver metal between the rear end of the TL 11-23 lens and the SL3's mount, very different from SL lenses that have the rubber gasket flush against the mount, is this normal?

- My TL 11-23 lens was manufactured very long ago, the rear cap even has the orange warning sticker for only using firmware 1.4 with the original T on it. My SL3 is on the latest firmware version of 1.1.9, but after mounting the lens on for the first time, the TL lens was on firmware 1.0 but did not automatically update like when recently released APO-Summicron-SL lenses were mounted. I had to go on Leica's website to download a .plf file called ''Firmware TL-Lenses linear MF" and manually update the TL lens to firmware version 2.0, but I could not find any release notes on what is actually contained in this firmware 2.0 update. Anyone can shed light onto the latest firmware situation for these discontinued TL lenses and what they entail?

- The SL3's EVF has the correct diopter setting for my eyes, but using either SL or TL lenses with it and shooting through the EVF, the image preview does not turn or appear sharp even though the shutter button has already been half-pressed and the focus field or point has turned green, is this a defect with the camera? At the same time, using the LCD screen always produced a sharp image preview compared to the EVF, and the image review always showed a perfectly focused and sharp image after taking the picture. 

- I get that shooting this way, even though the image is 26MP, the surface area / image circle are still confined to an APS-C sized format. How does the image quality compared to a 24MP TL2 / CL this way? Is it actually equal to or better than a dedicated APS-C body? 

[frame-it]

18 minutes ago, prismstorm said:

''Firmware TL-Lenses linear MF"

linear manual focus?

fly-by-wire focus that is position dependent not speed dependent, the focusing feels similar to that of a mechanical focus lens ?

[hoolyproductions]

51 minutes ago, prismstorm said:

- I get that shooting this way, even though the image is 26MP, the surface area / image circle are still confined to an APS-C sized format. How does the image quality compared to a 24MP TL2 / CL this way? Is it actually equal to or better than a dedicated APS-C body? 

I can't comment on SL3 but I have used TL lenses on both the CL and the SL2-S. Mostly with the 35mm Summilux TL. Image quality is basically the same but with noticeably better dynamic range/noise performance, plus the added benefit of IBIS. I imagine would also be the case with SL3.

[jaapv]

The image quality will be at least as good but likely better than on an older sensor. A lens-sensor system is not a weakest link situation but an additive one. 

[EUSe]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb prismstorm:

Having recently acquired a SL3, I obtained the TL 11-23 to use on it as with the new 60MP sensor 26MP in crop mode is even more than SL2-S's native resolution now. The size and weight savings are huge. Would like to see whether the following are what others experience as well: 

- I know that TL lenses are not claimed to be weather sealed, but after mounting the lens, there is a noticeable gap of silver metal between the rear end of the TL 11-23 lens and the SL3's mount, very different from SL lenses that have the rubber gasket flush against the mount, is this normal?

- My TL 11-23 lens was manufactured very long ago, the rear cap even has the orange warning sticker for only using firmware 1.4 with the original T on it. My SL3 is on the latest firmware version of 1.1.9, but after mounting the lens on for the first time, the TL lens was on firmware 1.0 but did not automatically update like when recently released APO-Summicron-SL lenses were mounted. I had to go on Leica's website to download a .plf file called ''Firmware TL-Lenses linear MF" and manually update the TL lens to firmware version 2.0, but I could not find any release notes on what is actually contained in this firmware 2.0 update. Anyone can shed light onto the latest firmware situation for these discontinued TL lenses and what they entail?

- The SL3's EVF has the correct diopter setting for my eyes, but using either SL or TL lenses with it and shooting through the EVF, the image preview does not turn or appear sharp even though the shutter button has already been half-pressed and the focus field or point has turned green, is this a defect with the camera? At the same time, using the LCD screen always produced a sharp image preview compared to the EVF, and the image review always showed a perfectly focused and sharp image after taking the picture. 

- I get that shooting this way, even though the image is 26MP, the surface area / image circle are still confined to an APS-C sized format. How does the image quality compared to a 24MP TL2 / CL this way? Is it actually equal to or better than a dedicated APS-C body? 

The EVF problem reminds me of the one I noticed testing a Leica Q3 demo camera at the shop, the menu bars were sharp and so was the LCD screen. I was not the only one to notice it. As for TL lenses, I had an SL2 with very few shutter actuations for a couple of days. In contrast to other user‘s comments on the forum, I was very disappointed with the results, mostly due to the SL2‘s very bad noise performance in low light. The results were not usable and I did not like the outdoor results in better light either. The SL3 is a different and newer camera and might perform better. The CL clearly outperformed the SL2 with a TL lens after Photoshop AI noise reduction, the image was also sharper. 

Edited August 14, 2024 by EUSe

[Stuart Richardson]

The SL2 is a high resolution focused camera, and is not focused on being great in low light (there is the SL2S for that)…if you use an APS-C sized crop you are making it even worse as you are essentially doubling the noise. 
 

I think the TL lens compatibility is more of a “nice to have in a pinch” rather than an actual use case for the SL.  If you intend to use the SL cameras as your main system, it probably makes more sense to look at lightweight full frame lenses like the Leica ASPH lenses and the Panasonic and Sigma compact lenses. Even if they are not “Leica” lenses, they will give a much better performance in resolution, tonality and noise than a TL lens would because they are using the whole sensor. The TL were also built under contract in Japan…that is not to imply they are not good, only to say that they are not somehow better than a good Sigma or Panasonic lens. 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[EUSe]

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vor 20 Minuten schrieb Stuart Richardson:

The SL2 is a high resolution focused camera, and is not focused on being great in low light (there is the SL2S for that)…if you use an APS-C sized crop you are making it even worse as you are essentially doubling the noise. 
 

I think the TL lens compatibility is more of a “nice to have in a pinch” rather than an actual use case for the SL.  If you intend to use the SL cameras as your main system, it probably makes more sense to look at lightweight full frame lenses like the Leica ASPH lenses and the Panasonic and Sigma compact lenses. Even if they are not “Leica” lenses, they will give a much better performance in resolution, tonality and noise than a TL lens would because they are using the whole sensor. The TL were also built under contract in Japan…that is not to imply they are not good, only to say that they are not somehow better than a good Sigma or Panasonic lens. 

Exactly. The TL 60 mm f2.8 macro I was using was built in Germany, though and was seen as the flagship lens among the TL lenses. I liked it very much on Leica APS-C bodies, just as the 50 -135 mm TL. The latter balances well on an SL body.

Edited August 14, 2024 by EUSe

[Markey]

Recently sold my TL lenses .18/23/35/60 and 55135.

I actually prefer using M lenses on my CL , I was never impressed by the AF, and the CL lenses aren`t exactly small

Although the lightweight CL lenses seem like a good idea on my SL2s I was somewhat disappointed by the result.

I decided maybe somewhat erroneously that although the CL body still remains useful for M mount and as an extender for SL lenses the CL lenses themselves were orphaned as a result of Leica abandoning the system. 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

If you intend to use the SL cameras as your main system, it probably makes more sense to look at lightweight full frame lenses like the Leica ASPH lenses and the Panasonic and Sigma compact lenses. Even if they are not “Leica” lenses, they will give a much better performance in resolution, tonality and noise than a TL lens would because they are using the whole sensor.

I considered getting a TL 18-56 for my fp, as a small walk-around kit. I got a Lumix 20-60 instead. It isn't much bigger, and it focuses much closer. Image quality comparisons favour the 20-60, because it covers full frame.

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, prismstorm said:

''Firmware TL-Lenses linear MF"

At one point all the L-mount lenses got updated to have a liner response when MF is active, with the option to choose the degree of rotation.
The fly by wire option is still there if you like variable rotation speed.

 

7 hours ago, prismstorm said:

using either SL or TL lenses with it and shooting through the EVF, the image preview does not turn or appear sharp even though the shutter button has already been half-pressed

there is always a degradation of the image if you use AFc, you get better results in AFs.

7 hours ago, prismstorm said:

- I get that shooting this way, even though the image is 26MP, the surface area / image circle are still confined to an APS-C sized format. How does the image quality compared to a 24MP TL2 / CL this way? Is it actually equal to or better than a dedicated APS-C body? 

You get excellent quality image conditions on the lens used. the 60 macro and 35 summilux are quite good.

The only downside is that you will not able to use pixel shift, when it comes out on SL3. It requires Full frame lenses.

[Rmccoole]

9 hours ago, Markey said:

Recently sold my TL lenses .18/23/35/60 and 55135.

I actually prefer using M lenses on my CL , I was never impressed by the AF, and the CL lenses aren`t exactly small

Although the lightweight CL lenses seem like a good idea on my SL2s I was somewhat disappointed by the result.

I decided maybe somewhat erroneously that although the CL body still remains useful for M mount and as an extender for SL lenses the CL lenses themselves were orphaned as a result of Leica abandoning the system. 

 

[Rmccoole]

I recently learned just how much Leica has "orphaned" the CL and its lenses. My 55-135 TL lens has a zoom ring that doesn't work - the lens is free to roam in and out as it's pushed or as it pleases. Very frustrating. Leica Europe says they can't fix it - don't have the parts. So a 2.5 year-old lens can't be fixed. Before I discovered this, I bought a used SL2 and then a new SL3 and a 14-24, a 24-90 and a 100-400 L lens. So much for customer loyalty.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Rmccoole
Grammar

[Stuart Richardson]

Wow, that is pretty bad. I wonder if this is also partly because they outsourced the TL lenses. Did they offer you any sort of good will exchange or replacement? I also thought that EU law required repair to be available for ten years, but perhaps there are exceptions.

[geraldc]

A couple of months ago we were on a tour and I brought along an old TL 11-23 and a SL 24-70 f2.8 to use with a SL3.  For street and city use, and in confined spaces, I found the TL results pleasing and acceptable. The big advantage was the lightweight lens with auto focus which worked very well.  M lenses (esp. my fav. 50 asph Summilux) would have been too slow for day and night street scenes. The cropped results were rather good for both photos and videos when viewing them on large computer monitors and 65" OLED TVs. For landscapes I switched to the 24-70 F2 .8. I did not do any side by side comparisons.

[Markey]

6 hours ago, Rmccoole said:

I recently learned just how much Leica has "orphaned" the CL and its lenses. My 55-135 TL lens has a zoom ring that doesn't work - the lens is free to roam in and out as it's pushed or as it pleases. Very frustrating. Leica Europe says they can't fix it - don't have the parts. So a 2.5 year-old lens can't be fixed. Before I discovered this, I bought a used SL2 and then a new SL3 and a 14-24, a 24-90 and a 100-400 L lens. So much for customer loyalty.

Sorry to hear that .

Myself I just "sensed" that Leica had moved on from the CL line up like they have with other products in the past .

That and the limitations of the lenses outside of the CL platform was the deciding factor although it wasn`t an easy decision.

I`ve been using Leica products since the `80`s but frankly remain wary of their commitment outside of the M line up

[prismstorm]

22 hours ago, frame-it said:

linear manual focus?

fly-by-wire focus that is position dependent not speed dependent, the focusing feels similar to that of a mechanical focus lens ?

I see, is that all that's involved in the firmware upgrade? Nothing related to actual performance like AF speed? 

 

21 hours ago, hoolyproductions said:

I can't comment on SL3 but I have used TL lenses on both the CL and the SL2-S. Mostly with the 35mm Summilux TL. Image quality is basically the same but with noticeably better dynamic range/noise performance, plus the added benefit of IBIS. I imagine would also be the case with SL3.

Thanks for the reassurance, SL2-S in APS-C mode only fetches 10MP but SL3 gives 26MP, so here's to hope! 

 

20 hours ago, jaapv said:

The image quality will be at least as good but likely better than on an older sensor. A lens-sensor system is not a weakest link situation but an additive one. 

Since TL lenses are almost 9 - 10 years old at this point, just hope that they were designed to resolve a higher megapixels sensor like the one on the SL3.  

[prismstorm]

18 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The SL2 is a high resolution focused camera, and is not focused on being great in low light (there is the SL2S for that)…if you use an APS-C sized crop you are making it even worse as you are essentially doubling the noise. 
 

I think the TL lens compatibility is more of a “nice to have in a pinch” rather than an actual use case for the SL.  If you intend to use the SL cameras as your main system, it probably makes more sense to look at lightweight full frame lenses like the Leica ASPH lenses and the Panasonic and Sigma compact lenses. Even if they are not “Leica” lenses, they will give a much better performance in resolution, tonality and noise than a TL lens would because they are using the whole sensor. The TL were also built under contract in Japan…that is not to imply they are not good, only to say that they are not somehow better than a good Sigma or Panasonic lens. 

Ok, I simply like the design and colors these lenses produce, as seen on real life results from Red Dot Forum, I'll look into the other L mount options. 

 

18 hours ago, EUSe said:

Exactly. The TL 60 mm f2.8 macro I was using was built in Germany, though and was seen as the flagship lens among the TL lenses. I liked it very much on Leica APS-C bodies, just as the 50 -135 mm TL. The latter balances well on an SL body.

I would also like a 55-135 TL zoom, but sadly I could not find a new one anymore. 

18 hours ago, EUSe said:

The EVF problem reminds me of the one I noticed testing a Leica Q3 demo camera at the shop, the menu bars were sharp and so was the LCD screen. I was not the only one to notice it. As for TL lenses, I had an SL2 with very few shutter actuations for a couple of days. In contrast to other user‘s comments on the forum, I was very disappointed with the results, mostly due to the SL2‘s very bad noise performance in low light. The results were not usable and I did not like the outdoor results in better light either. The SL3 is a different and newer camera and might perform better. The CL clearly outperformed the SL2 with a TL lens after Photoshop AI noise reduction, the image was also sharper. 

Aren't both the EVF and LCD's image preview supposed to get sharp when one half-presses the shutter button to actuate AF? I do not know whether this is the default behavior or a bug to be fixed in firmware update. 

[prismstorm]

15 hours ago, Photoworks said:

At one point all the L-mount lenses got updated to have a liner response when MF is active, with the option to choose the degree of rotation.
The fly by wire option is still there if you like variable rotation speed.

 

there is always a degradation of the image if you use AFc, you get better results in AFs.

You get excellent quality image conditions on the lens used. the 60 macro and 35 summilux are quite good.

The only downside is that you will not able to use pixel shift, when it comes out on SL3. It requires Full frame lenses.

Yes only using Afs now, I have actual APO-Summicron-SL lenses for serious shoots, I am only taking the TL lenses on more casual trips due to their compactness and lightness relative to the extremely bulky SL native zooms. I don't think there is pixel shift option in the SL3. 

[prismstorm]

4 hours ago, geraldc said:

A couple of months ago we were on a tour and I brought along an old TL 11-23 and a SL 24-70 f2.8 to use with a SL3.  For street and city use, and in confined spaces, I found the TL results pleasing and acceptable. The big advantage was the lightweight lens with auto focus which worked very well.  M lenses (esp. my fav. 50 asph Summilux) would have been too slow for day and night street scenes. The cropped results were rather good for both photos and videos when viewing them on large computer monitors and 65" OLED TVs. For landscapes I switched to the 24-70 F2 .8. I did not do any side by side comparisons.

Good to hear that TL lenses on SL3 is a viable option, I don't think 26MP is too shabby for normal web use, I also have not tested the APS-C mode performance with full frame. 

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[EUSe]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb prismstorm:

… Aren't both the EVF and LCD's image preview supposed to get sharp when one half-presses the shutter button to actuate AF? I do not know whether this is the default behavior or a bug to be fixed in firmware update. 

It seems that only the small focus field gets sharp when you half-press the button, but the whole image is unsharp once the AF locks. The monitor is always sharp and the focus is correct. I called the Leica service and was advised to send an email. I have not received a response yet.

Edited August 15, 2024 by EUSe