Interesting Leica ii Leitz-Eigentum

[analogM]

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Came across this Leica ii and was wondering if it is original.

Never seen one all blacked out like this. To me it does not look like original black paint...

Also the 'belederung' looks like nothing I've seen before. It has "Leitz-Eigentum" and some sort of number inside, but nothing on the outside.

Could any of you shed some light over this rather interesting Barnack? I might have the possibility to purchase it...

 

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Edited August 4, 2024 by analogM

[romanus53]

too much engravings for my taste, smells sovietish, check the rangefinder-coupling: roller = Leica, triangle = FED/Zorky

[TomB_tx]

The VF window is blended flush with the top, like a FED, not a Leica. Bet if you pull off the lens the focus cam follower would not be a "roller" as noted above.

[dg4mgr]

As already said, this is not a Leica. You can check several details mentioned on this page: https://mikeeckman.com/2020/12/how-to-spot-a-fake-leica/

[willeica]

1 hour ago, analogM said:

Came across this Leica ii and was wondering if it is original.

Never seen one all blacked out like this. To me it does not look like original black paint...

Also the 'belederung' looks like nothing I've seen before. It has "Leitz-Eigentum" and some sort of number inside, but nothing on the outside.

Could any of you shed some light over this rather interesting Barnack? I might have the possibility to purchase it...

 

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I agree with the comments above. Look at the rangefinder cam. Is it round or somewhat triangular?

William 

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, analogM said:

I might have the possibility to purchase it...

Run away!

You are right to question its authenticity. Always check the major details first. The way the rangefinder cover bulges out to form the top of the viewfinder surround that @TomB_tx mentions tells you all you need to know. This is the most obvious and definitive feature of a typical Soviet copy. No Leica looks like this. There are other clear tell-tales too.

 

Edited August 4, 2024 by Anbaric

[analogM]

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Thank you all for the insight and for saving my wallet 😅

I am obviously not very knowledgeable about Barnack Leica's but am eager to learn and today I learned something 😃

[pippy]

On 8/4/2024 at 4:22 PM, romanus53 said:

too much engravings for my taste, smells sovietish, check the rangefinder-coupling: roller = Leica, triangle = FED/Zorky

Definitely a FED 1 but it is a fairly early (pre-WWII?) example. Have a look at the position of the centrally-mounted top-plate locating screw which is only partially visible - below the central r/f window roughly in line with the 1.75m marker of the distance scale;

On 8/4/2024 at 3:48 PM, analogM said:

Could any of you shed some light over this rather interesting Barnack?...

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I would have to confirm dates but this detail was changed to the screw-head being fully visible before FED had reached 100,000 examples made.

Such a pity; these are actually very nice cameras when unmolested.

Philip.

Edited August 5, 2024 by pippy

[pippy]

Not that I suppose there's much interest here anymore but, just to tidy things up a bit, the camera in question is, indeed, a Pre-WWII FED 1 Type C.

Specifically it is what is now classified as a PEO230 or PEO235. Various detail-differences- as can be seen in pics in the OP - between models in this 1 Type C sub-group date its manufacture to the period from late 1938 to early 1939.

To narrow down the accuracy of its origins even further it would be neccessary to know whether there were three screw-heads visible under the rewind knob(*). If not then the camera belongs to the PEO230 batch which numbered a mere 7,000 units. If, however, there are not three screw-heads visible under the rewind knob then the camera is part of the PEO235 group which is even rarer as only c. 5,600 were made.

To put these figures into some sort of perspective it is estimated that the survival rates for pre-WWII FED 1 cameras is "probably" less than 5% so, for these two groups, just a few hundred all-told. Certainly it is not a commonly found variant.

This used to be a rather wonderful camera. Such a pity to have destroyed its originality so unneccessarily. By the end of production in 1955 there had been almost 800,000 FED 1 cameras made. Why ruin such a rare example?

I believe I have a similar one hereabouts and, if so and just for fits'n'giggles, I will post a snap tomorrow just to show how the camera pictured would have looked when in slightly more original condition.

Philip.

* Incidentally I have never seen a rewind-knob with such a distinctive 'dip' on the top-surface. MOST unusual and certainly not original.

Edited August 6, 2024 by pippy

[qqphot]

6 hours ago, pippy said:

Not that I suppose there's much interest here anymore but, just to tidy things up a bit, the camera in question is, indeed, a Pre-WWII FED 1 Type C.

On the contrary, I think we often see and think of the FED generically as "that soviet thing the fakers try to dress up as a Leica" and I at least find it interesting to see discussion of actual details and their history.

[pippy]

2 hours ago, qqphot said:

On the contrary, I think we often see and think of the FED generically as "that soviet thing the fakers try to dress up as a Leica" and I at least find it interesting to see discussion of actual details and their history.

I'm glad this has been of some interest.

As was suggested yesterday here is a snap of my own PEO230 which will give a good idea of what the camera in the OP looked like before the Fakery. Its serial number, 85068 places the period of manufacture to be somewhere around Nov/Dec 1938;

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Philip.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

I'm glad this has been of some interest.

As was suggested yesterday here is a snap of my own PEO230 which will give a good idea of what the camera in the OP looked like before the Fakery. Its serial number, 85068 places the period of manufacture to be somewhere around Nov/Dec 1938;

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Philip.

Thanks Philip

I feel that the distinction between fakes and copies is often not understood here. This one seems to be both a fake and a copy. Soviet Leica copies should be respected for what they were. For the umpteenth time here is my article on the subject.

William

[analogM]

On 8/4/2024 at 6:45 PM, willeica said:

I agree with the comments above. Look at the rangefinder cam. Is it round or somewhat triangular?

William 

Dear William, I have no opportunity to take look at the rangefinder cam. The pictures I posted are from the add, I have not seen the camera in person. Thank you for posting your article (again)!

@pippy: Thanks for continuing the thread, very interesting info. And yes, a pitty about the fakery.

I had placed a bid of €200 in the afternoon. When I checked later in the evening I had no less than 8 messages from the seller agreeing with the bid and pushing me to pay. When I did not react fast enough to his liking (like within an hour) he apparently sold it to another bidder. I'm very glad I came to the forum first. In hindsight so many dead giveaways this is no Leica...! 
 

Martijn

 

[Anbaric]

13 hours ago, pippy said:

To put these figures into some sort of perspective it is estimated that the survival rates for pre-WWII FED 1 cameras is "probably" less than 5% so, for these two groups, just a few hundred all-told. Certainly it is not a commonly found variant.

This used to be a rather wonderful camera. Such a pity to have destroyed its originality so unneccessarily. By the end of production in 1955 there had been almost 800,000 FED 1 cameras made. Why ruin such a rare example?

What a shame. Perhaps the faker even lost out here, as the camera might have been worth more in its original condition as an uncommon FED.

[pippy]

On 8/4/2024 at 5:45 PM, willeica said:

...Look at the rangefinder cam. Is it round or somewhat triangular?...

Just whilst we are on this subject...

As William quite rightly states the Triangular, sometimes named 'Balalaika' (whose last two syllables are slightly ironic) cam-profile is almost always a very good 'giveaway' as to the origin of a camera body. It should be borne in mind, however, that very early FED 1 cameras had a cam-follower of a different form altogether.

Here is a pair of pics showing the cam-follower of a late '35-early '36 PEO160 (left) in comparison with that of the late '38 PEO230 (right) which was shown in post #12;

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According to Jean Loup Princelle (sort-of the Jim Lager of FSU cameras) in his encyclopaedic 300-page tome on these things(*) the 'Bread-Loaf' version was replaced by the 'Balalaika' shape with the appearance of the FED 1 (C) PEO225 sometime towards the end of 1937 at serial number c. 55,000 (Sovietcams website states 54,400 so pretty close).

My FED 1 (B) PEO210 (serial no. 40797) from c. late '36 '- early '37 still has the 'Bread Loaf' follower so all that seems to fit the info available I've seen.

Just thought it was worth a mention!

Philip.

(*) "The Authentic Guide to Russian and Soviet Cameras - Second Edition". Below is a link for anyone with an interest;

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9782952252102/Authentic-Guide-Russian-Soviet-Cameras-2952252106/plp?cm_sp=plped-_-2-_-image

Edited August 6, 2024 by pippy

[Pyrogallol]

This is my FED 1d from 1939, which I believe is PEO250. Serial No. 112189.

The book I bought from Peter Loy Ltd last week. I think he may have more copies available.

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Edited August 6, 2024 by Pyrogallol

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Pyrogallol said:

This is my FED 1d from 1939, which I believe is PEO250. Serial No. 112189...

Nice camera! Yes; it should certainly be a PEO250 with that number and with the 'Kommuna' engraving having changed to 'Kombinat'.

One easy way to confirm that it isn't a later variant would be, with the shutter set to B and opened, to look at the pressure-plate. The PEO250 was the last of the 'regular' FED 1 (D) cameras to still feature the round hole on the plate. The PEO260 (from Ser. No. circa 145,000) had a solid plate.

I trust you are finding the Princelle entertaining? It is certainly highly informative!

Philip.