Leica M11-F1 - Foveon X3 sensor

[jeri]

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Hypothetical question

From the nature of their architecture, Foveon sensors can be defined as the most faithful digital equivalent of photographic film. The performance of these sensors in the field - as long as low ISO sensitivity is involved - is something that is difficult if at all to achieve from conventional sensors, which use Bayer interpolation.
As mentioned, the bottleneck of the Foveon sensor is a poor ability to amplify digital signals, and in addition a low battery life (Merrill cameras, etc.), which makes the cameras in which it is found a niche product, which keeps consumers away from them.

In the last decade, SIGMA (the Japanese manufacturer of optical products), which holds the property rights to the unique patent of the Foveon sensor, has been working to bring these sensors to a capability close to that of conventional sensors, but without much success. So at the moment there is no camera in sight to replace my SIGMA DP2 Merrill.

I believe that a collaboration between the two companies LEICA and SIGMA may yield the Leica M11-F1 (the company's first M Foveon camera), the mythical tribute to the seventieth year of the Leica M, which will be the closest thing to synergistic perfection between the two worlds: the film and the digital. Those who have not experienced the outputs of XF3 files will not understand the fuss. But for the people of the Leica company; To those mute observers in the forum I'll say this, 'It is not too late and the ink is not yet dry on the paper'.

Edited August 3, 2024 by jeri

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[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, jeri said:

I believe that a collaboration between the two companies LEICA and SIGMA may yield the Leica M11-F1 (the company's first M Foveon camera), the mythical tribute to the seventieth year of the Leica M, which will be the closest thing to synergistic perfection between the two worlds: the film and the digital. Those who have not experienced the outputs of XF3 files will not understand the fuss. But for the people of the Leica company; To those mute observers in the forum I'll say this, 'It is not too late and the ink is not yet dry on the paper'.

the full-frame sensor has been delayed every year. how can there be a product without a product?

Leica may be into quality, but can afford a Kodak sensor issue again.

Plus the M11 sensor is already fantastic!

[jeri]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

the full-frame sensor has been delayed every year. how can there be a product without a product?

Leica may be into quality, but can afford a Kodak sensor issue again.

Plus the M11 sensor is already fantastic!

I'll start from the end. We don't disagree about the fantastic quality of the Leica M11 sensor. In terms of its usability, I feel the M11's sensor does everything so well. But from a personal point of view, I feel the M11's 'Uber 911' sensor is a bit boring. You'd be surprised, but in terms of excitement, I prefer the products produced by the CCD sensors of the Leica M8, and the Foveon of the Merrill DP2 - both of which I own.

In my estimation, SIGMA's difficulty in producing a full-frame Foveon sensor, which will compete with Bayer's interpolation sensors, is partly due to the fact that Sigma's camera division does not have infinite R&D resources. Such an issue can be used as a lever for cooperation between the two companies - SIGMA and Leica. When For the first time in its history - celebrating the 70th anniversary of the M camera - Leica will be able to enjoy a three-layer color sensor, without the need for a Bayer limiting filter, and the beneficiaries, of course, will be the customers of both companies.

[jaapv]

Foveon sensors have deep wells and do not play well with steep incidence angles, which, incidentally, is the reason behind the delays of a full frame  Foveon. 
It would not be suitable as a M sensor for that reason alone. 

[lct]

Consumers and makers ideas don't always match. Notwithstanding technical issues like digital noise at high isos, not sure why Leica would wish to loose the Leica look in favor of anything else, be it Kodak, Foveon or whatever.

Edited August 3, 2024 by lct

[Photoworks]

Not sure Leica is interest in that.

They just look at the marked and select the better sensor that they can get and use that.

Relaying on a small manifacture like Foveon to be able to produce and deliver without delay is gamble.

The challanges are not only Image quality, but read out speed, electronic shutter speed, and everyting else modern sensor can do.

Can sigma catch up on that? Panasonic just gave up on the sensor production!

[graphlex]

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The greater the number of megapixels, the smaller the interpolation error and the smaller the theoretical advantage of a Foveon sensor.

[Josh Rainey]

Yeah, we're in solid territory with CMOS sensors right now. Next step is global shutter (we're already there).

If you need a Foveon sensor to get a certain type of green, or a CCD to get a certain type of red, then you're missing the point of digital capture. You don't even have to understand color relationships to do that, as there as 1000 LUTs or LR presets that you could play with that would help you get closer to what you like.

At 18mp, 36mp, or 60mp these raw files are very robust and the borders between colors are super clean as it is.

[jaapv]

And getting even better as lithography technique progresses and gets more precise.(EUV machines) 

[Al Brown]

Most likely not in the 70 years celebration pipeline.

[evikne]

I'm sure Leica is watching with interest, and it's conceivable that it would be in their spirit to make a camera with such a sensor. But there are certainly many barriers in the way yet.

[Henners]

I miss my DP2 Merrill, amazing sensor but wrapped in a poor excuse of a camera. If Leica and Sigma did an M camera I would be very excited for it.

[pop]

If anyone brought an APS-C rangefinder camera with a Foveon to market, I'd be in deep trouble as I don't think I could resist. I, too, think that the Foveon images look much more alive than any Bayer ever did.

Anyway, I satisfied my GAS just the other day and bought myself an Epson R-D1 with its very nice 6MP CCD sensor.

[jeri]

1 hour ago, Henners said:

I miss my DP2 Merrill, amazing sensor but wrapped in a poor excuse of a camera. If Leica and Sigma did an M camera I would be very excited for it.

I bought it new from the dealer in 2012, and since then, I haven't had any camera that can really produce as rich and vibrant color output as the Sigma dp2 Merrill can. Also, it's a compact and reliable camera, so I don't think I'll ever want to get rid of it.

Below, two demo images. One is a picture of my colleague. And the second picture, is of a plate of hummus, food that I cook and prepare with my own hands. Sigma dp2 Merrill of course. 

 

 

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[Josh Rainey]

Those look really good, but those colors are 100% achievable with CMOS sensors.

Nice skin tones, higher saturation density in the reds (darker/richer), great blues...

I can understand the appeal of getting a certain look out of camera, but if you figure out how to get that look in post, you only have to do the work once, then apply it over and over.

I've entertained Foveon at various points, and it would be great if Leica could pull it off to get those natural colors with no hassle.

But you can make a CMOS sensor file look like any other camera, and type of film, or anything else. Hollywood's been doing it for 10 years. 

Once again, no disrespect to you camera/sensor, that really does look nice.